My Katar Collection

estcrh · 14th August 2014, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

Like many members here, despite his excellent English, it is not Jens' first language and stylistic or cultural nuance can be missed. As I have grown very familiar with his personality and posting style, Jens' posts on this thread were not, to me, rude or insensitive at all. However, I can understand how others, not as familiar with him, could misconstrue his playful comments.

Frankly, whenever I see a post on Indian arms/armour, it is Jens' responses I most look forward to reading...

Andrew, Jen currently has 1,666 posts here dating back to 2004, he is obviously intelligent and he know exactly how he is coming across. these two statements from him say it all.

Quote:

Maybe I better stop writing on the forum and only look now and again, so I dont offend others.

Quote:

I wish you all the best, as I think I will stop writing on the forum, so others can take over.

What a mature attitude, he will take his toys and go home if anyone dares to mention the obvious, of course he has the right to act any way he wants and forum members can pretend its perfectly alright with them so that they can obtain some little nuggets of Jens wisdom which he will begrudgingly toss their way occasionally.

Quote:

researching as I have for decades

, I know many people on several different forums who have been researching various arms and armor related subjects for decades as well and they freely give their advice without such childish outbursts. I myself have spent many years and considerable amounts of money researching Japanese armor, everything I have learned is available to anyone free of charge, with no snarky comments etc. My images have been given to the public on Wikipedia Commons and I have created several articles on Wikipedia were the references I have used to obtain my knowledge are listed as well for anyone to see and use.

Here are links to Jens articles on the katar for anyone interested, of course you will have to purchase them.

http://www.maneyonline.com/doi/abs/1...3Z.00000000020

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/1...0#.U-yP6_ldUZw

Andrew · 14th August 2014, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

Andrew, Jen currently has 1,666 posts here dating back to 2004, he is obviously intelligent and he know exactly how he is coming across. these two statements from him say it all.

What a mature attitude, he will take his toys and go home if anyone dares to mention the obvious, of course he has the right to act any way he wants and forum members can pretend its perfectly alright with them so that they can obtain some little nuggets of Jens wisdom which he will begrudgingly toss their way occasionally.

, I know many people on several different forums who have been researching various arms and armor related subjects for decades as well and they freely give their advice without such childish outbursts. I myself have spent many years and considerable amounts of money researching Japanese armor, everything I have learned is available to anyone free of charge, with no snarky comments etc. My images have been given to the public on Wikipedia Commons and I have created several articles on Wikipedia were the references I have used to obtain my knowledge are listed as well for anyone to see and use.

Here are links to Jens articles on the katar for anyone interested, of course you will have to purchase them.

http://www.maneyonline.com/doi/abs/1...3Z.00000000020

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/1...0#.U-yP6_ldUZw

Well, I disagree with your take on this. As does the OP, incidentally.

Regardless, I ask that you focus your comments on the item being discussed, rather than on those discussing it.

Andrew

JamesKelly · 15th August 2014, 02:02 AM

Oh, well.

My son helped clean up my computer a bit.
Naturally we went to this site for pictures of my katar.
Andrew does not collect, nor has he any particular knowledge of, edged weapons.
He looked at mine.
He looked at the one Jens posted 10 Aug 03:45 pm
He immediately pointed out the two peacocks on my blade, which I had not been able to see (the other two are still a bit vague to me)

Oh, well.

I'm sure I'll find Zebrowski and Hamza's adventures interesting, once abebooks sends them.

Aaagh.

Jim McDougall · 15th August 2014, 03:08 AM

Amazing!
In a post of some most interesting katars, and the developing discussion, why in the world this person with no interest in these and nothing to add to the discussion decide to intervene and insult a most valued senior member here? The poster, Mr Kelly, fully took in stride the responses from Jens.

I can honestly say that in well over four decades of the study of arms, and in more instances I can recount in conversations with authors, collectors, dealers, and well known scholars on these subjects...often times their retorts or responses may have been perceived as brusque or blunt, but 'rude' is not a term I would use. These men indeed shared their knowledge with me, but bluntly challenged me to find answers on my own as well . That message served me well, and I did, and they taught me exactly what Jens tried to say.......if you intend to pursue a field of study, it must be a serious approach and answers are out there, but must be found, not simply handed over.

I have written on these forums for over 17 years (2004 was a benchmark when the forum was reorganized) and Jens was writing here before then as well.
He has become one of the foremost authorities on katars and tulwars (though he will never admit it!) and has been the very person most here turn to on these arms for a these years.
I resent the 'rude' comment about Jens ...period!

He has openly shared his knowledge here with countless members and readers over all these years, and entirely advanced all of our knowledge on these arms, together. I have written here as long , and spent countless hours and days and often money researching in order to offer as much information as possible to learn with others here.....so has Jens.

I emphatically note this not only as a friend of Jens, but proudly as a colleague here who is boundlessly grateful for all he has openly shared.
His articles are of course involving purchase, but as anyone who has published knows, it is because they are in published journals which are not free.

JamesKelly · 15th August 2014, 03:38 AM

As the person who started all this mess I wish to emphasize that I never felt insulted by Jens nor did I regard him as rude. Indeed, he has my sympathy as an expert answering questions from the totally ignorant. In this field I am that ignorant person.

I appreciate the knowledge he has imparted.

My introduction to arms literature came in the spring of 1951 when I first read my father's book The Kentucky Rifle, by Captain John G.W. Dillin. I have since acquired a fair size library on firearms, North American history, historical metallurgy and assorted other matters. For various reasons i have become interested in edged weapons, for the most part Indian.

Along with the weapons themselves one attraction is the impressive intellectual level of this site. I do not have decades left to study this new (to me) field, but I surely do like to learn what I can about those weapons that I have.

Jim McDougall · 15th August 2014, 04:46 AM

Very graciously put James, and as I noted in my comments, your posts were well placed as were your responses, and the unfortunate turn in the meter of this thread had nothing to do with you, and resulted entirely from the unwarranted intervention which had nothing to do with the discussion.

As Jens has well noted, the study of Indian arms is far from a topic which has concise answers and neatly categorized classifications for its weapons in many, if not most cases. In such cases, even the many references and volumes published on these arms do not come close to definitive answers which constantly arise with the many cross influenced forms and variants.
I would not use to the term 'ignorance' toward anyone baffled by this formidable topic but with an interest in them, as few can claim exact knowledge and infallible knowledge on them.

While you may modestly disclaim specific knowledge in certain fields, your interest and desire to learn is well placed here, and your grace and courtesy an exemplary lesson in the gentlemanly discussions we strive for.
Thank you so much!

P.S. I have to admit I really have trouble with these peacocks too!!!

estcrh · 15th August 2014, 06:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Amazing!
In a post of some most interesting katars, and the developing discussion, why in the world this person with no interest in these and nothing to add to the discussion decide to intervene and insult a most valued senior member here? The poster, Mr Kelly, fully took in stride the responses from Jens.

Jim, of course Mr Kelly said nothing, if he did then he risked Jens doing exactly what he did when I mentioned his rude answer, which was to threaten to not post here anymore. How would you know that I have no interest in katars, do you think I am reading these posts for nothing, as for having nothing to add, I am reading the posts to learn, like many others who read the post here but do not "add" anything.

I belong to many different forums on many different subjects. People with superior knowledge go to these forums to share what they know, others go to learn. This post was just such a post, a person asked for some comments on an item he obviously knows little about. Jens pointed out something he obviously know a lot about but instead of explaining further he said this.

Quote:

Ok have a look at this picture, and tell me that you dont see two peacocks.
I would recommend you to get books on the subject. I have six or seven meters of them, so there are enougt to choose from. A real/interested collector will buy books on the subject of interest, and not always rely on the answers given on a forum.Jens

Jens could have easily shown were the peacocks were located and he could have easily recommended some books for people to read on the subject of Indian decorations (which he later did). What does his ownership of "six or seven meters" of books have to do with this, and his snarky smart ass "A real/interested collector will buy books on the subject of interest, and not always rely on the answers given on a forum" was totally uncalled for.

Then because one person (me) dares to express an opinion on his answer he threatens to stop posting here, what kind of childish reply is that, so he is going to punish all forum members else because I made a comment. When someone who is an authority on any subject answers people who he knows do not have the same level of knowledge in that manner it is rude, that is my personal opinion on the subject, which comes from many years of discussing arms and armor on various forums with some very knowledgeable people who never answer a less knowledgeable forum member that way.

Jim McDougall · 15th August 2014, 06:35 AM

OK estcrh, now you have had your say, and on one thing you say I agree, we are all here to learn, together, and you note that you indeed have an interest in katars, or at least imply that you do. I have found over the years, that often friction in these threads in best remedied by focus on the topic rather than personalized criticism.
I would suggest we follow Andrew's well put suggestion and redirect to the topic at hand.

Jens Nordlunde · 15th August 2014, 03:58 PM

Ok let me end this discussion.

Thank you James and Jim for your kind posts. James please let me know how to get in toutch with you.

James you will find two peacocks at the top of the blade, and you will find two peacocks on the hand guard close to the top of the blade. It is by far easiest to see them on the gold decorated one.

Runjeet, the gold decorated katar has been decorated centuries later, maybe stripped of an earlier thick gold decoration - who knows?
I know there are four or five hilts shown in the Zebrowski book, but trhat is all, and I would not like members to buy it thinking they would get an Indian weapon book.

Jens

15th August 2014, 02:02 AM	#3
JamesKelly Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Michigan, U.S.A. Posts: 108	Oh, well. My son helped clean up my computer a bit. Naturally we went to this site for pictures of my katar. Andrew does not collect, nor has he any particular knowledge of, edged weapons. He looked at mine. He looked at the one Jens posted 10 Aug 03:45 pm He immediately pointed out the two peacocks on my blade, which I had not been able to see (the other two are still a bit vague to me) Oh, well. I'm sure I'll find Zebrowski and Hamza's adventures interesting, once abebooks sends them. Aaagh.

15th August 2014, 03:08 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,619	Amazing! In a post of some most interesting katars, and the developing discussion, why in the world this person with no interest in these and nothing to add to the discussion decide to intervene and insult a most valued senior member here? The poster, Mr Kelly, fully took in stride the responses from Jens. I can honestly say that in well over four decades of the study of arms, and in more instances I can recount in conversations with authors, collectors, dealers, and well known scholars on these subjects...often times their retorts or responses may have been perceived as brusque or blunt, but 'rude' is not a term I would use. These men indeed shared their knowledge with me, but bluntly challenged me to find answers on my own as well . That message served me well, and I did, and they taught me exactly what Jens tried to say.......if you intend to pursue a field of study, it must be a serious approach and answers are out there, but must be found, not simply handed over. I have written on these forums for over 17 years (2004 was a benchmark when the forum was reorganized) and Jens was writing here before then as well. He has become one of the foremost authorities on katars and tulwars (though he will never admit it!) and has been the very person most here turn to on these arms for a these years. I resent the 'rude' comment about Jens ...period! He has openly shared his knowledge here with countless members and readers over all these years, and entirely advanced all of our knowledge on these arms, together. I have written here as long , and spent countless hours and days and often money researching in order to offer as much information as possible to learn with others here.....so has Jens. I emphatically note this not only as a friend of Jens, but proudly as a colleague here who is boundlessly grateful for all he has openly shared. His articles are of course involving purchase, but as anyone who has published knows, it is because they are in published journals which are not free.

15th August 2014, 03:38 AM	#5
JamesKelly Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Michigan, U.S.A. Posts: 108	As the person who started all this mess I wish to emphasize that I never felt insulted by Jens nor did I regard him as rude. Indeed, he has my sympathy as an expert answering questions from the totally ignorant. In this field I am that ignorant person. I appreciate the knowledge he has imparted. My introduction to arms literature came in the spring of 1951 when I first read my father's book The Kentucky Rifle, by Captain John G.W. Dillin. I have since acquired a fair size library on firearms, North American history, historical metallurgy and assorted other matters. For various reasons i have become interested in edged weapons, for the most part Indian. Along with the weapons themselves one attraction is the impressive intellectual level of this site. I do not have decades left to study this new (to me) field, but I surely do like to learn what I can about those weapons that I have.

15th August 2014, 04:46 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,619	Very graciously put James, and as I noted in my comments, your posts were well placed as were your responses, and the unfortunate turn in the meter of this thread had nothing to do with you, and resulted entirely from the unwarranted intervention which had nothing to do with the discussion. As Jens has well noted, the study of Indian arms is far from a topic which has concise answers and neatly categorized classifications for its weapons in many, if not most cases. In such cases, even the many references and volumes published on these arms do not come close to definitive answers which constantly arise with the many cross influenced forms and variants. I would not use to the term 'ignorance' toward anyone baffled by this formidable topic but with an interest in them, as few can claim exact knowledge and infallible knowledge on them. While you may modestly disclaim specific knowledge in certain fields, your interest and desire to learn is well placed here, and your grace and courtesy an exemplary lesson in the gentlemanly discussions we strive for. Thank you so much! P.S. I have to admit I really have trouble with these peacocks too!!!

15th August 2014, 06:35 AM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,619	OK estcrh, now you have had your say, and on one thing you say I agree, we are all here to learn, together, and you note that you indeed have an interest in katars, or at least imply that you do. I have found over the years, that often friction in these threads in best remedied by focus on the topic rather than personalized criticism. I would suggest we follow Andrew's well put suggestion and redirect to the topic at hand.

15th August 2014, 03:58 PM	#9
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Ok let me end this discussion. Thank you James and Jim for your kind posts. James please let me know how to get in toutch with you. James you will find two peacocks at the top of the blade, and you will find two peacocks on the hand guard close to the top of the blade. It is by far easiest to see them on the gold decorated one. Runjeet, the gold decorated katar has been decorated centuries later, maybe stripped of an earlier thick gold decoration - who knows? I know there are four or five hilts shown in the Zebrowski book, but trhat is all, and I would not like members to buy it thinking they would get an Indian weapon book. Jens