St. Peter's Dagger

[ariel]

And then, there is this enigmatic knife of Prince Andrey Staricki of the early 16th century, the origins of which are still hotly debated in Russian sources, although, IMHO, they are fairly obvious: Islamic, Persian, Mongol,- choose your definition, but no matter what, - Eastern.

[Oliver Pinchot]

Ariel, I agree one can certainly argue the boundaries- to the degree there were any-- to the lands of the Afghan tribes; for the "modern" boundaries of Central Asian states, we have mostly Stalin to thank. On the other hand, the designation "Central Asia" specifies a geographical region, it isn't a political distinction.

An observant friend who has been to St. Peter's recently provided the image I've attached below. It shows that the grip of the dagger is ferrous metal, and was chiseled overall originally-- probably inlaid with gold or silver at one time as well. The image also makes it clear that the band around the pommel contains an inscription in Arabic characters. Based on this, I would argue that the dagger is in a homogenous state, which allows it to be associated with two of the examples pictured in The Muslim Knight cited above, numbers 138 and 139. The authors suggest that those examples may have been produced during the Ghazavid era in Central Asia. By comparison, the blade of the St. Peter example is more substantial, and the overall quality and complexity of the blade, even taking into consideration the condition of number 138, is substantially higher. Further, the grips of both the published examples are, or were, organic. The St. Peter dagger has an iron or steel grip, given the type and degree of corrosion. For these reasons, I would provisionally attribute it to a form that existed in Central Asia (and may well have evolved there) but was produced in an Ottoman or Safavid (or pre-Safavid Akkoyunlu) workshop, probably between 1400-1500, based upon the motifs which appear on the blade, i.e. the Timurid trefoils and segmented sun disk.

I don't think the Staritski dagger is much of an enigma. It's a Central Asian bladeform that survived into the latter 18th century; the suspension system survived even longer. The forward-curving blade remains in use by Persian, Mughal and even Ottoman smiths up to the latter 19th century; it seems to be a simplification of the very complex blades discussed above. The real key to attributing the origin of that type is the scabbard. Note the strip which runs up the back of the scabbard-- it is set with a ring at the top and bound by a series of bands. This characteristic survives on elaborately-decorated kards of 19th century Bukhara and Khiva, among other Central Asian daggers. It is also found on some Tibetan weapons and I've even seen Chinese trousses that make use of it. Too, the long chape terminating in a bead is retained on the scabbards of "Khyber knives" dating well into the 20th century. So yes, definitely Eastern....

[Jim McDougall]

Oliver, this is not only eloquently, but perfectly explained along with the exacting detail and description with which you characterize and define this fascinating dagger. This is what is so exciting, and always has been, in your manner of describing and categorizing weapons. You always patiently attend to not only what a weapon is.....you also explain why you believe it is so, and substantiate your analysis with observations and comparisons.

This is the kind of detail and text I wish many others with expertise in certain fields of arms study would openly share in this way, and it is exciting to read this, in your own inimitable style of writing, and LEARN!!!

This is exactly why I am so thrilled you have at last put these kinds of fascinating details and your profound knowledge on Eastern arms into print with your book!!!!! I am very much looking forward to receiving my copy, and would like to thank you personally for adding such an important reference to the resources we rely on in pursuing our common interests.

With all kindest regards,
Jim

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot

...
The real key to attributing the origin of that type is the scabbard. Note the strip which runs up the back of the scabbard-- it is set with a ring at the top and bound by a series of bands. This characteristic survives on elaborately-decorated kards of 19th century Bukhara and Khiva, among other Central Asian daggers. It is also found on some Tibetan weapons and I've even seen Chinese trousses that make use of it. ...

my old chinese/tibetan knife with two bands and the strip:

[spiral]

Fascinating thread!

spiral

[ariel]

Oliver,
No argument here: Central-Asian origins, actual manufacture 14-16 century Persia or Mughal India. My only hesitation is with your mention of its potential Mamluk origin. Perhaps, we did not understand each other's intentions. But so be it, end of disagreement.
The Staricky's dagger still is a subject of vicious, murderous arguments on some Russian Forums. I do not have to tell you about the nationalistic currents in the Russian history of everything: who invented radio, airplane, steam engine and shashka, the Fourth Rome etc. The prevailing view there is that Staricky's dagger is an example of pure Russian origin and tradition, although some brave souls try to tie it to the Vikings' skramasaxes( well, Vikings were part and parcel of Kievan Rus etc, but Asians did not leave any imprint on the pristine body of Russian culture :-)). I tried to draw their attention to the very same features that you have mentioned, but was summarily shot as a secret agent of the Mongolian Horde:-)

And still.... The enigma of that dagger is in its inscription: pure and unadulterated gibberish, but imitating Arabic script. To me it suggests that the dagger might, -just might! - have been made by a Russian master who tried to advertise it as a genuine "Eastern" object.

There are very few 16-17th centuries iconographic evidences of its presence in the suit of arms of Russian nobility and even fewer actual examples. But they do exist, just like St. Peter's dagger..... I think they might be reasonably close cousins.

[Oliver Pinchot]

Ariel, I did not suggest it could be South Asian. Nothing about the form or decorative motifs supports that. As for the Mamluks, it's a strong possibility, given that expatriate Persian smiths made many of the arms and armor we associate with that culture-- it is often, in fact usually, of the highest quality. That said, I left it at Persian, in the interest of remaining concise. Mamluk arms are really a distinct discussion.

Point well taken regarding nationalism; it has no place in scholarly discourse. The Staritsky dagger may be from X, with the "inscription" added later, or Russian work in the style of X. I owned one of those, unembellished but complete with the scabbard, many years ago. Massive thing, it was close to 2 feet long.

[ariel]

Oliver,
I was not even mentioning South Asia:-)
Central, -yes.