St. Peter's Dagger

Oliver Pinchot · 8th August 2014, 05:35 AM

Given the measurements (thanks, Alan) I think the blade is definitely Ottoman of that period. The chiseled, segmented sun disk and Timurid trefoils are characteristic, together with the fullering and the stop at the forte.

The grip may be original to it, the form is reasonable. But the nature of the characters (if that is indeed what they are) which decorate the borders, and the absence of any sort of bolsters rather derail that line of thought, at least for the moment. Perhaps more information will surface at some point. A lovely conundrum, in any case.

ariel · 9th August 2014, 08:38 PM

I would just want to draw your attention to 3 daggers from the book of Bashir Mohammed, - Furussiya Collection. All identified as Timurid Afghani, 11-12th century.

Battara · 9th August 2014, 11:22 PM

Timurid Afgani - not crossed my mind. Does slightly remind me of the profile of an Afgani kukri........

Oliver Pinchot · 9th August 2014, 11:50 PM

Brilliant, Ariel. I was just readying the camera to shoot those images.
The St. Peter dagger is certainly of this family, but I don't agree they are from Timurid Afghanistan. I'm not sure the authors are, either-- note that in the description, the first line reads, "This dagger is said to have been found in present-day Afghanistan."
More manifestly, to me the inlay work may speak of Central Asia but is also reminiscent of the Mamluks (who in turn, influenced the Ottomans.)
Whatever their origin, they do make a good argument for the grip on the S.P. dagger being original to it.
Again, well done!

ariel · 10th August 2014, 03:16 PM

Oliver,
Wouldn't you agree that the distinction between what we know as "present-day Afghanistan" and "present -day Central Asia" is rather artificial? Even now, Tajiks, Turkmen and Uzbeks ( classical Central Asian people) constitute large portion of Afghani population.

At the beginning of the second millennium, Persian culture was the dominant and unifying force in that area. Then the Mongols came.....

Here, BTW, is an old Persian miniature, showing a warrior, decapitating his enemy with a very, very similar knife.

ariel · 10th August 2014, 03:25 PM

And then, there is this enigmatic knife of Prince Andrey Staricki of the early 16th century, the origins of which are still hotly debated in Russian sources, although, IMHO, they are fairly obvious: Islamic, Persian, Mongol,- choose your definition, but no matter what, - Eastern.

Oliver Pinchot · 14th August 2014, 05:34 PM

Ariel, I agree one can certainly argue the boundaries- to the degree there were any-- to the lands of the Afghan tribes; for the "modern" boundaries of Central Asian states, we have mostly Stalin to thank. On the other hand, the designation "Central Asia" specifies a geographical region, it isn't a political distinction.

An observant friend who has been to St. Peter's recently provided the image I've attached below. It shows that the grip of the dagger is ferrous metal, and was chiseled overall originally-- probably inlaid with gold or silver at one time as well. The image also makes it clear that the band around the pommel contains an inscription in Arabic characters. Based on this, I would argue that the dagger is in a homogenous state, which allows it to be associated with two of the examples pictured in The Muslim Knight cited above, numbers 138 and 139. The authors suggest that those examples may have been produced during the Ghazavid era in Central Asia. By comparison, the blade of the St. Peter example is more substantial, and the overall quality and complexity of the blade, even taking into consideration the condition of number 138, is substantially higher. Further, the grips of both the published examples are, or were, organic. The St. Peter dagger has an iron or steel grip, given the type and degree of corrosion. For these reasons, I would provisionally attribute it to a form that existed in Central Asia (and may well have evolved there) but was produced in an Ottoman or Safavid (or pre-Safavid Akkoyunlu) workshop, probably between 1400-1500, based upon the motifs which appear on the blade, i.e. the Timurid trefoils and segmented sun disk.

I don't think the Staritski dagger is much of an enigma. It's a Central Asian bladeform that survived into the latter 18th century; the suspension system survived even longer. The forward-curving blade remains in use by Persian, Mughal and even Ottoman smiths up to the latter 19th century; it seems to be a simplification of the very complex blades discussed above. The real key to attributing the origin of that type is the scabbard. Note the strip which runs up the back of the scabbard-- it is set with a ring at the top and bound by a series of bands. This characteristic survives on elaborately-decorated kards of 19th century Bukhara and Khiva, among other Central Asian daggers. It is also found on some Tibetan weapons and I've even seen Chinese trousses that make use of it. Too, the long chape terminating in a bead is retained on the scabbards of "Khyber knives" dating well into the 20th century. So yes, definitely Eastern....

9th August 2014, 08:38 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I would just want to draw your attention to 3 daggers from the book of Bashir Mohammed, - Furussiya Collection. All identified as Timurid Afghani, 11-12th century. Attached Images

10th August 2014, 03:16 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Oliver, Wouldn't you agree that the distinction between what we know as "present-day Afghanistan" and "present -day Central Asia" is rather artificial? Even now, Tajiks, Turkmen and Uzbeks ( classical Central Asian people) constitute large portion of Afghani population. At the beginning of the second millennium, Persian culture was the dominant and unifying force in that area. Then the Mongols came..... Here, BTW, is an old Persian miniature, showing a warrior, decapitating his enemy with a very, very similar knife. Attached Images

10th August 2014, 03:25 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	And then, there is this enigmatic knife of Prince Andrey Staricki of the early 16th century, the origins of which are still hotly debated in Russian sources, although, IMHO, they are fairly obvious: Islamic, Persian, Mongol,- choose your definition, but no matter what, - Eastern. Attached Images

14th August 2014, 05:34 PM	#7
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 464	Ariel, I agree one can certainly argue the boundaries- to the degree there were any-- to the lands of the Afghan tribes; for the "modern" boundaries of Central Asian states, we have mostly Stalin to thank. On the other hand, the designation "Central Asia" specifies a geographical region, it isn't a political distinction. An observant friend who has been to St. Peter's recently provided the image I've attached below. It shows that the grip of the dagger is ferrous metal, and was chiseled overall originally-- probably inlaid with gold or silver at one time as well. The image also makes it clear that the band around the pommel contains an inscription in Arabic characters. Based on this, I would argue that the dagger is in a homogenous state, which allows it to be associated with two of the examples pictured in The Muslim Knight cited above, numbers 138 and 139. The authors suggest that those examples may have been produced during the Ghazavid era in Central Asia. By comparison, the blade of the St. Peter example is more substantial, and the overall quality and complexity of the blade, even taking into consideration the condition of number 138, is substantially higher. Further, the grips of both the published examples are, or were, organic. The St. Peter dagger has an iron or steel grip, given the type and degree of corrosion. For these reasons, I would provisionally attribute it to a form that existed in Central Asia (and may well have evolved there) but was produced in an Ottoman or Safavid (or pre-Safavid Akkoyunlu) workshop, probably between 1400-1500, based upon the motifs which appear on the blade, i.e. the Timurid trefoils and segmented sun disk. I don't think the Staritski dagger is much of an enigma. It's a Central Asian bladeform that survived into the latter 18th century; the suspension system survived even longer. The forward-curving blade remains in use by Persian, Mughal and even Ottoman smiths up to the latter 19th century; it seems to be a simplification of the very complex blades discussed above. The real key to attributing the origin of that type is the scabbard. Note the strip which runs up the back of the scabbard-- it is set with a ring at the top and bound by a series of bands. This characteristic survives on elaborately-decorated kards of 19th century Bukhara and Khiva, among other Central Asian daggers. It is also found on some Tibetan weapons and I've even seen Chinese trousses that make use of it. Too, the long chape terminating in a bead is retained on the scabbards of "Khyber knives" dating well into the 20th century. So yes, definitely Eastern.... Attached Images Last edited by Oliver Pinchot; 14th August 2014 at 06:03 PM.

8th August 2014, 05:35 AM	#1
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 464	Given the measurements (thanks, Alan) I think the blade is definitely Ottoman of that period. The chiseled, segmented sun disk and Timurid trefoils are characteristic, together with the fullering and the stop at the forte. The grip may be original to it, the form is reasonable. But the nature of the characters (if that is indeed what they are) which decorate the borders, and the absence of any sort of bolsters rather derail that line of thought, at least for the moment. Perhaps more information will surface at some point. A lovely conundrum, in any case.

9th August 2014, 11:22 PM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	Timurid Afgani - not crossed my mind. Does slightly remind me of the profile of an Afgani kukri........

9th August 2014, 11:50 PM	#4
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 464	Brilliant, Ariel. I was just readying the camera to shoot those images. The St. Peter dagger is certainly of this family, but I don't agree they are from Timurid Afghanistan. I'm not sure the authors are, either-- note that in the description, the first line reads, "This dagger is said to have been found in present-day Afghanistan." More manifestly, to me the inlay work may speak of Central Asia but is also reminiscent of the Mamluks (who in turn, influenced the Ottomans.) Whatever their origin, they do make a good argument for the grip on the S.P. dagger being original to it. Again, well done!