Unusual figural hilt

RSWORD · 8th August 2014, 01:02 AM

David,

When I posted this one on the figural thread I had tagged it Balinese but you didn't think so. Don't know if the additional pictures sway you in any direction but what do you think?

A. G. Maisey · 8th August 2014, 01:31 AM

Personally I doubt that it is a keris hilt.

A ferrule like this is very, very non-typical for a keris hilt. But it could be a keris hilt, a person who was outside the mainstream may have carved and fitted it.

It looks more like nondescript knife/dagger/tool handle than a keris hilt.

If I could handle it I could form a better opinion, from a photo these things are always difficult.

Rick · 8th August 2014, 02:42 AM

Agree, I think it is a repurposed handle; something about the carving of the face says more Java than Bali to me .

Jean · 8th August 2014, 09:50 AM

I agree with Alan and Rick. Any opinion about the blade origin, javanese or older balinese?
Regards

Rick · 7th February 2020, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Personally I doubt that it is a keris hilt.

A ferrule like this is very, very non-typical for a keris hilt. But it could be a keris hilt, a person who was outside the mainstream may have carved and fitted it.

It looks more like nondescript knife/dagger/tool handle than a keris hilt.

If I could handle it I could form a better opinion, from a photo these things are always difficult.

I'd bet it was originally made as a handle for a betel nut chisel.

A. G. Maisey · 11th February 2020, 09:51 PM

Yeah Rick, it could be I suppose, but to me it seems too big for that. All the handles of those little pestles that I've seen are much smaller, and tend to be sort like a pistol grip style. I think the name for those things is "pelecok" but I'm not sure and I have been unable to confirm.

David · 8th August 2014, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSWORD

David,

When I posted this one on the figural thread I had tagged it Balinese but you didn't think so. Don't know if the additional pictures sway you in any direction but what do you think?

Well, the sheath is certainly Bali. Not sure on the blade, especially given it's current condition. Of course, even it the blade AND sheath are Bali that would not preclude a hilt being placed on this keris from a different origin. Happens all the time. I am somewhat of the same mind as Alan though that this is possibly not originally meant to be a keris hilt at all. It also seems that it is missing a ferrule ring which may or may not have provided a clue to its origin.

A. G. Maisey · 8th August 2014, 01:17 PM

Yes, the ferrule itself is missing, but it has been cut so deep that I cannot envisage anything that belongs to a keris being with it.

The blade looks like it might be Balinese, again I'd have to handle it to be relatively certain, especially in the condition that its in.

Jean · 8th August 2014, 07:02 PM

Thank you Alan and David.
I attach the pic of one old (kris?) hilt specimen with a deeply carved base and fitted with a ferrule for whatever reason (damage?). The Solo nunggak semi hilts fitted with a selut also have a recessed base (but less deeply cut) for inserting the selut.
Best regards

RSWORD · 10th August 2014, 12:55 AM

Thanks everyone for the feedback. I appreciate it.

A. G. Maisey · 10th August 2014, 01:52 AM

Jean, that hilt that you have shown would originally have had one of those Cirebon style iron seluts.

The usual Central Jawa older selut has a scalloped rim. I have only ever seen cheap modern Jogja seluts with a straight rim.

Do we know of any hilt anything like this one from Cirebon?

Do we know of any Balinese hilt that uses a selut that would require deep cutting into the hilt?

If we do, then maybe we can give a "possible" to this hilt as a keris hilt, but the geometry of it looks much more like a generic sword/knife/dagger/tool hilt than a keris hilt. The only handle I've seen that looks something like this is a Lombok pelecok handle, but this hilt is not from a pelecok.

Jean · 10th August 2014, 09:05 AM

Thank you Alan.
The iron ferrule fitted on my hilt is old, do you expect it to be original or is the type of Cirebon selut which you mention a different model?
I will check my old balinese hilts as I have few pieces with a quite deeply cut base for inserting the selut like this one (freshly repainted).
And you are right that the old Solo hilts with selut have a scalloped rim.
Best regards
Jean

GIO · 7th February 2020, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

Thank you Alan and David.
I attach the pic of one old (kris?) hilt specimen with a deeply carved base and fitted with a ferrule for whatever reason (damage?). The Solo nunggak semi hilts fitted with a selut also have a recessed base (but less deeply cut) for inserting the selut.
Best regards

IMHO such deeply carved base has the purpose of fitting a keris hilt to a pestel for betel nut breaking.

mariusgmioc · 7th February 2020, 09:28 PM

Hello guys!

You probably know by now that I don't know almost anything about Indonesian krisses...
... but... I have seen many of them in the many museums I have visited in Indonesia and also in the collecteions of the few Indonesian dealers I have visited...
... but...
that definitely does NOT look like keris hilt!

One can fit almost anything to a keris, but does this make it a keris hilt?

Then what is a keris hilt:

1. something attached to a keris to serve as a hilt or...

2. something purposedly made to serve as a hilt for a keris?!

GIO · 24th February 2020, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GIO

IMHO such deeply carved base has the purpose of fitting a keris hilt to a pestel for betel nut breaking.

Sorry my previous interpretation was wrong. See the pics for possible explanation.

A. G. Maisey · 24th February 2020, 07:01 PM

Yes, seluts can sit pretty deep, but on this particular hilt it was more likely to have been an iron selut. I've got a couple of hilts with iron seluts, I'll see if I can find them.

8th August 2014, 09:50 AM	#4
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	I agree with Alan and Rick. Any opinion about the blade origin, javanese or older balinese? Regards Last edited by Jean; 9th August 2014 at 09:14 AM.

8th August 2014, 07:02 PM	#9
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Thank you Alan and David. I attach the pic of one old (kris?) hilt specimen with a deeply carved base and fitted with a ferrule for whatever reason (damage?). The Solo nunggak semi hilts fitted with a selut also have a recessed base (but less deeply cut) for inserting the selut. Best regards Attached Images Last edited by Jean; 9th August 2014 at 09:18 AM.

10th August 2014, 09:05 AM	#12
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Thank you Alan. The iron ferrule fitted on my hilt is old, do you expect it to be original or is the type of Cirebon selut which you mention a different model? I will check my old balinese hilts as I have few pieces with a quite deeply cut base for inserting the selut like this one (freshly repainted). And you are right that the old Solo hilts with selut have a scalloped rim. Best regards Jean Attached Images

8th August 2014, 01:02 AM	#1
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,092	David, When I posted this one on the figural thread I had tagged it Balinese but you didn't think so. Don't know if the additional pictures sway you in any direction but what do you think?

8th August 2014, 01:31 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,084	Personally I doubt that it is a keris hilt. A ferrule like this is very, very non-typical for a keris hilt. But it could be a keris hilt, a person who was outside the mainstream may have carved and fitted it. It looks more like nondescript knife/dagger/tool handle than a keris hilt. If I could handle it I could form a better opinion, from a photo these things are always difficult.

8th August 2014, 02:42 AM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,376	Agree, I think it is a repurposed handle; something about the carving of the face says more Java than Bali to me .

11th February 2020, 09:51 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,084	Yeah Rick, it could be I suppose, but to me it seems too big for that. All the handles of those little pestles that I've seen are much smaller, and tend to be sort like a pistol grip style. I think the name for those things is "pelecok" but I'm not sure and I have been unable to confirm.

8th August 2014, 01:17 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,084	Yes, the ferrule itself is missing, but it has been cut so deep that I cannot envisage anything that belongs to a keris being with it. The blade looks like it might be Balinese, again I'd have to handle it to be relatively certain, especially in the condition that its in.

10th August 2014, 12:55 AM	#10
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,092	Thanks everyone for the feedback. I appreciate it.

10th August 2014, 01:52 AM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,084	Jean, that hilt that you have shown would originally have had one of those Cirebon style iron seluts. The usual Central Jawa older selut has a scalloped rim. I have only ever seen cheap modern Jogja seluts with a straight rim. Do we know of any hilt anything like this one from Cirebon? Do we know of any Balinese hilt that uses a selut that would require deep cutting into the hilt? If we do, then maybe we can give a "possible" to this hilt as a keris hilt, but the geometry of it looks much more like a generic sword/knife/dagger/tool hilt than a keris hilt. The only handle I've seen that looks something like this is a Lombok pelecok handle, but this hilt is not from a pelecok.

7th February 2020, 09:28 PM	#14
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,912	Hello guys! You probably know by now that I don't know almost anything about Indonesian krisses... ... but... I have seen many of them in the many museums I have visited in Indonesia and also in the collecteions of the few Indonesian dealers I have visited... ... but... that definitely does NOT look like keris hilt! One can fit almost anything to a keris, but does this make it a keris hilt? Then what is a keris hilt: 1. something attached to a keris to serve as a hilt or... 2. something purposedly made to serve as a hilt for a keris?!

24th February 2020, 07:01 PM	#16
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,084	Yes, seluts can sit pretty deep, but on this particular hilt it was more likely to have been an iron selut. I've got a couple of hilts with iron seluts, I'll see if I can find them.