Interesting keris making video

David · 31st July 2014, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pusaka

Here is an example, notice how the pamor of this blade has a golden color, could such a pamor result from a more exotic pamor alloy possibly containing gold or other metals as in the video?

I could be mistaken, but i thing that yellow hue is more likely the result of a bad staining job.

Richard Furrer · 31st July 2014, 10:44 PM

I like the video quite a bit.

...reminds me of early African work.
I use the "pipe" containment method from time to time....good to know its traditional.

As to gold/iron alloys. I'd have to look at the binary phase diagrams for those two, but I'm sure some form of eutectic can be reached. I am not sure that new alloy would forge well or show any evidence of a gold color when completed.

Many cultures have the multi metal in their blade making processes. One would have to chemically test the final metal to see what, if any, made it through the processing. I'd imagine in trace amounts it neither helped nor hindered the process.

On thought on the gold:
I'm sure it never happened, but one may suspect that it requires several ounces of gold to make a thing...only to have that gold transmuted from the process and not being found in the final work piece.....it may have jumped in time and space to the neck and ears of the smith's wife some weeks later. Just a thought.

Ric

A. G. Maisey · 31st July 2014, 10:56 PM

As David has indicated, the yellowish stain that shows in the pamor in post #9 is the result of failure to get the blade perfectly clean and white prior to staining.

Another way that we can get very peculiar colours in a finished stain job is by using other than proven warangan, or other than laboratory quality arsenic trioxide.

However, what I'm looking at in post #9 gives every indication of failure to clean adequately prior to staining.

Richard, I think that you have a close to perfect understanding of the way gold given to a smith for inclusion in pamor could actually produce a favourable result for the smith --- and his wife.

Pusaka · 1st August 2014, 12:17 AM

I think we would have to consider the gold making an alloy with the nickel component of the meteorite as a higher possibility then an Iron/gold alloy being formed.

As far as I could understand it he put crushed meteorite, gold and that black material from the smelt into those tubes, I'm not sure if that black material is iron, nickel or nickel iron.

If you look at the first bowl of material he puts into the smelting furnace it looks almost copper colored, have no idea what that is.

A. G. Maisey · 1st August 2014, 01:41 AM

The text that flashes onto the screen is Indonesian, and that tells us that it is "biji besi" : "iron seed" that is put into the smelt, and a little later the Indonesian text again tells us that the product is "sponge iron".

Pusaka · 1st August 2014, 10:51 AM

Did a search for gold-nickel alloy and it confirms gold will combine with nickel to form an alloy, so it would appear there is a high possibility of the gold forming an alloy with the nickel component of the meteorite.

A. G. Maisey · 1st August 2014, 02:16 PM

Thanks Pusaka, that's interesting, but in respect of the video that we have seen, the presence of both gold and meteoritic material is not yet confirmed.

As I have stated, I only half understand Krama Inggil, but I have had two native speakers of Javanese look at that video, and although they can follow the general gist of what is being said, they also cannot understand word for word.

If you are a speaker of Krama Inggil, perhaps you might be able to give us a better understanding of exactly what the commentator is saying and confirm for us that meteorite and gold are both included in the material used.

31st July 2014, 10:56 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	As David has indicated, the yellowish stain that shows in the pamor in post #9 is the result of failure to get the blade perfectly clean and white prior to staining. Another way that we can get very peculiar colours in a finished stain job is by using other than proven warangan, or other than laboratory quality arsenic trioxide. However, what I'm looking at in post #9 gives every indication of failure to clean adequately prior to staining. Richard, I think that you have a close to perfect understanding of the way gold given to a smith for inclusion in pamor could actually produce a favourable result for the smith --- and his wife. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 1st August 2014 at 02:22 PM. Reason: credit where credit is due

1st August 2014, 10:51 AM	#6
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	Did a search for gold-nickel alloy and it confirms gold will combine with nickel to form an alloy, so it would appear there is a high possibility of the gold forming an alloy with the nickel component of the meteorite. Attached Images

31st July 2014, 10:44 PM	#2
Richard Furrer Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Sturgeon Bay, Wisconsin Posts: 163	I like the video quite a bit. ...reminds me of early African work. I use the "pipe" containment method from time to time....good to know its traditional. As to gold/iron alloys. I'd have to look at the binary phase diagrams for those two, but I'm sure some form of eutectic can be reached. I am not sure that new alloy would forge well or show any evidence of a gold color when completed. Many cultures have the multi metal in their blade making processes. One would have to chemically test the final metal to see what, if any, made it through the processing. I'd imagine in trace amounts it neither helped nor hindered the process. On thought on the gold: I'm sure it never happened, but one may suspect that it requires several ounces of gold to make a thing...only to have that gold transmuted from the process and not being found in the final work piece.....it may have jumped in time and space to the neck and ears of the smith's wife some weeks later. Just a thought. Ric

1st August 2014, 12:17 AM	#4
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	I think we would have to consider the gold making an alloy with the nickel component of the meteorite as a higher possibility then an Iron/gold alloy being formed. As far as I could understand it he put crushed meteorite, gold and that black material from the smelt into those tubes, I'm not sure if that black material is iron, nickel or nickel iron. If you look at the first bowl of material he puts into the smelting furnace it looks almost copper colored, have no idea what that is.

1st August 2014, 01:41 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	The text that flashes onto the screen is Indonesian, and that tells us that it is "biji besi" : "iron seed" that is put into the smelt, and a little later the Indonesian text again tells us that the product is "sponge iron".

1st August 2014, 02:16 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	Thanks Pusaka, that's interesting, but in respect of the video that we have seen, the presence of both gold and meteoritic material is not yet confirmed. As I have stated, I only half understand Krama Inggil, but I have had two native speakers of Javanese look at that video, and although they can follow the general gist of what is being said, they also cannot understand word for word. If you are a speaker of Krama Inggil, perhaps you might be able to give us a better understanding of exactly what the commentator is saying and confirm for us that meteorite and gold are both included in the material used.