Interesting keris making video

A. G. Maisey · 31st July 2014, 01:22 PM

You mean "sung" Detlef?

Artistic effect. As I said, the video is for entertainment.

Pusaka · 31st July 2014, 02:19 PM

Im thinking of how sometimes the metal with the lower melting point actually acts as a solvent to melt the metal with a higher melting point.
Brass has a melting point of 930C whilst Nickel melts at 1453C yet if you add nickel to a pot of molten brass the brass will dissolve the nickel and you end up with nickel brass.

Same for mercury and gold, mercury will dissolve gold and the two will form an amalgam.

I'm also thinking of the alloy used to make expensive gamelan gongs in Bali. It consists of a blend of gold, silver, copper, zinc and Iron. Normally we would never think of adding Iron to such a mixture but I guess when the other components are molten they act like solvent to dissolve Iron into the mixture.

I have seen a few keris which had a yellowish/brown pamor and I often wondered why it had that color since pamor is usually white/silver or gray

Sajen · 31st July 2014, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

You mean "sung" Detlef?

Artistic effect. As I said, the video is for entertainment.

Yes, have meant sung!

Thank you for the answer!

Pusaka · 31st July 2014, 02:41 PM

Here is an example, notice how the pamor of this blade has a golden color, could such a pamor result from a more exotic pamor alloy possibly containing gold or other metals as in the video?

David · 31st July 2014, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pusaka

Here is an example, notice how the pamor of this blade has a golden color, could such a pamor result from a more exotic pamor alloy possibly containing gold or other metals as in the video?

I could be mistaken, but i thing that yellow hue is more likely the result of a bad staining job.

Richard Furrer · 31st July 2014, 10:44 PM

I like the video quite a bit.

...reminds me of early African work.
I use the "pipe" containment method from time to time....good to know its traditional.

As to gold/iron alloys. I'd have to look at the binary phase diagrams for those two, but I'm sure some form of eutectic can be reached. I am not sure that new alloy would forge well or show any evidence of a gold color when completed.

Many cultures have the multi metal in their blade making processes. One would have to chemically test the final metal to see what, if any, made it through the processing. I'd imagine in trace amounts it neither helped nor hindered the process.

On thought on the gold:
I'm sure it never happened, but one may suspect that it requires several ounces of gold to make a thing...only to have that gold transmuted from the process and not being found in the final work piece.....it may have jumped in time and space to the neck and ears of the smith's wife some weeks later. Just a thought.

Ric

A. G. Maisey · 31st July 2014, 10:56 PM

As David has indicated, the yellowish stain that shows in the pamor in post #9 is the result of failure to get the blade perfectly clean and white prior to staining.

Another way that we can get very peculiar colours in a finished stain job is by using other than proven warangan, or other than laboratory quality arsenic trioxide.

However, what I'm looking at in post #9 gives every indication of failure to clean adequately prior to staining.

Richard, I think that you have a close to perfect understanding of the way gold given to a smith for inclusion in pamor could actually produce a favourable result for the smith --- and his wife.

Pusaka · 1st August 2014, 12:17 AM

I think we would have to consider the gold making an alloy with the nickel component of the meteorite as a higher possibility then an Iron/gold alloy being formed.

As far as I could understand it he put crushed meteorite, gold and that black material from the smelt into those tubes, I'm not sure if that black material is iron, nickel or nickel iron.

If you look at the first bowl of material he puts into the smelting furnace it looks almost copper colored, have no idea what that is.

31st July 2014, 02:41 PM	#4
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	Here is an example, notice how the pamor of this blade has a golden color, could such a pamor result from a more exotic pamor alloy possibly containing gold or other metals as in the video? Attached Images

31st July 2014, 10:56 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	As David has indicated, the yellowish stain that shows in the pamor in post #9 is the result of failure to get the blade perfectly clean and white prior to staining. Another way that we can get very peculiar colours in a finished stain job is by using other than proven warangan, or other than laboratory quality arsenic trioxide. However, what I'm looking at in post #9 gives every indication of failure to clean adequately prior to staining. Richard, I think that you have a close to perfect understanding of the way gold given to a smith for inclusion in pamor could actually produce a favourable result for the smith --- and his wife. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 1st August 2014 at 02:22 PM. Reason: credit where credit is due

31st July 2014, 01:22 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	You mean "sung" Detlef? Artistic effect. As I said, the video is for entertainment.

31st July 2014, 02:19 PM	#2
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	Im thinking of how sometimes the metal with the lower melting point actually acts as a solvent to melt the metal with a higher melting point. Brass has a melting point of 930C whilst Nickel melts at 1453C yet if you add nickel to a pot of molten brass the brass will dissolve the nickel and you end up with nickel brass. Same for mercury and gold, mercury will dissolve gold and the two will form an amalgam. I'm also thinking of the alloy used to make expensive gamelan gongs in Bali. It consists of a blend of gold, silver, copper, zinc and Iron. Normally we would never think of adding Iron to such a mixture but I guess when the other components are molten they act like solvent to dissolve Iron into the mixture. I have seen a few keris which had a yellowish/brown pamor and I often wondered why it had that color since pamor is usually white/silver or gray

31st July 2014, 10:44 PM	#6
Richard Furrer Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Sturgeon Bay, Wisconsin Posts: 163	I like the video quite a bit. ...reminds me of early African work. I use the "pipe" containment method from time to time....good to know its traditional. As to gold/iron alloys. I'd have to look at the binary phase diagrams for those two, but I'm sure some form of eutectic can be reached. I am not sure that new alloy would forge well or show any evidence of a gold color when completed. Many cultures have the multi metal in their blade making processes. One would have to chemically test the final metal to see what, if any, made it through the processing. I'd imagine in trace amounts it neither helped nor hindered the process. On thought on the gold: I'm sure it never happened, but one may suspect that it requires several ounces of gold to make a thing...only to have that gold transmuted from the process and not being found in the final work piece.....it may have jumped in time and space to the neck and ears of the smith's wife some weeks later. Just a thought. Ric

1st August 2014, 12:17 AM	#8
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	I think we would have to consider the gold making an alloy with the nickel component of the meteorite as a higher possibility then an Iron/gold alloy being formed. As far as I could understand it he put crushed meteorite, gold and that black material from the smelt into those tubes, I'm not sure if that black material is iron, nickel or nickel iron. If you look at the first bowl of material he puts into the smelting furnace it looks almost copper colored, have no idea what that is.