The Omani Sayf. ( The Omani Straight Dancing Sword)

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Ingram is careful to point out that Omanis or Manga as they were known... only danced with the straight Omani dancing sword.
.

So despite further attempted muddying of the waters in your last post, in which you apparently underline your belief not Ingrams published statements..

So the truth is Ingram pointed out no such thing.

Never mind "Ingram is careful to point out that Omanis or Manga as they were known... only danced with the straight Omani dancing sword"

Where does that leave us?

spiral

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by spiral

So despite further attempted muddying of the waters in your last post, in which you apparently underline your belief not Ingrams published statements..

So the truth is Ingram pointed out no such thing.

Never mind "Ingram is careful to point out that Omanis or Manga as they were known... only danced with the straight Omani dancing sword"

Where does that leave us?

spiral

Us? Where does it leave us?... I think you have that misplaced... It leaves you still looking for a hook on which to hang your supposition... Try examining the post note by note of the 10 part summary then envisage the whole work and you will see you are tilting at windmills. Tilt away ! Dont be put off however... Note that for almost half of the giant thread Kattara for comments I was of a similar opinion to you ...and then the penny dropped.

If there was any chance of what you are saying... and that is not at all clear because you are operating in a vacuum ... do you not think I would have been able to show a result in your favour?...Don't waste any more time on this ... It never happened. No such weapon ever appeared. It's a red herring !!

See #18 at Kattara for comments ...viz;
Quote" Here is an important passage from W. H. INGRAMS who was an official advisor to the British governor and unusually advisor to the Sultan of Zanzibar variously from about 1919 (published in 1931) in which he describes~

" The only performance or dance of the Arabs is the sword dance, RAZHA, accompanied by an orchestra of drums while the performers armed with swords and Jambiyya and small shields of rhinoceros hide indulge in mimic contests. leaping about and weilding their swords in a truly marvellous way".

However what I find amazing is...This was not a Zanzibari dance. W. H. Ingrams goes on to explain that this was only carried out by the Manga(those born in Muscat) not those Mwarcha (those born in Zanzibar)."Unquote.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Us? Where does it leave us?... I think you have that misplaced... It leaves you still looking for a hook on which to hang your supposition... Try examining the post note by note of the 10 part summary then envisage the whole work and you will see you are tilting at windmills. Tilt away ! Dont be put off however... Note that for almost half of the giant thread Kattara for comments I was of a similar opinion to you ...and then the penny dropped.

If there was any chance of what you are saying... and that is not at all clear because you are operating in a vacuum ... do you not think I would have been able to show a result in your favour?...Don't waste any more time on this ... It never happened. No such weapon ever appeared. It's a red herring !!

See #18 at Kattara for comments ...viz;
Quote" Here is an important passage from W. H. INGRAMS who was an official advisor to the British governor and unusually advisor to the Sultan of Zanzibar variously from about 1919 (published in 1931) in which he describes~

" The only performance or dance of the Arabs is the sword dance, RAZHA, accompanied by an orchestra of drums while the performers armed with swords and Jambiyya and small shields of rhinoceros hide indulge in mimic contests. leaping about and weilding their swords in a truly marvellous way".

However what I find amazing is...This was not a Zanzibari dance. W. H. Ingrams goes on to explain that this was only carried out by the Manga(those born in Muscat) not those Mwarcha (those born in Zanzibar)."Unquote.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Interesting tirade but doesn't alter the fact you falsified evidence with false statements in this thread.

Sadly that does cast doubt on everything else you've said.

This is what you posted....

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Ingram is careful to point out that Omanis or Manga as they were known... only danced with the straight Omani dancing sword. .

And quite simply you made it up. Its not true.

Spiral

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by spiral

Interesting tirade but doesn't alter the fact you falsified evidence with false statements in this thread.

Sadly that does cast doubt on everything else you've said.

This is what you posted....



And quite simply you made it up. Its not true.

Spiral

Salaams Forum...All....It has come to my notice that certain facts delivered here by me have come into question and whilst naturally in the course of polite interchange and scholastic manouvring I quite accept that certain points may come as a surprise or that obscure references not always available to everyone (though all the references in this regard are) may seem incredulous but references they are and in the case of W.H. Ingrams they are immaculately recorded in his diaries... and in a book he had published called Zanzibar and Its Peoples, in 1931. ( I believe it was first done in 1927 according to another source...at the base of this list viz;

On the British period in Zanzibar and East Africa, and the
precceding period of Bü Safiıdı rule, see for example L.W.
Hollingsworth, Zanzibar under the Foreign Office 1890-1913, London,
1953, N.R.Bennet, A History of the Arab State ofZanzibar, London,1978,
M.L.Lofchie,Zanzibar. Background to Revolution, Princeton Univ. Press, 1965. See also theaccounts given by R.N.Lyne,Zanzibar inContemporary Times
, Hurst&Blackett, London,1905,

and W.H.Ingrams, Zanzibar. Its History and its Peoples, London, 1927

I go into some detail about this author and his vast experience as an administrator from 1919 and actually later in Hadramaut where he displayed brilliant service ~in "Kattara for comments" ~though he is also important since his involvement in the music and dance of the region was indeed a speciality and further he was a historian and much involved in the Zanzibar Museum structuring from the outset. It is in his coverage of Music Songs and Dances in Chapter 39 page 399 if my memory serves me well that he outlines the details current to the discussion others have brought derogatory questions to this table in what Ingrams himself would perhaps have described as slightly inflamatory. Humbug even? Personally I wouldn't like to comment since rule 1 is quite sufficiently clear, though, the comment on fabrication is hardly one of complicit teamwork and honourable discussion for which I thought as participants we had signed up to....however....

Some disagreement appears to have developed (though I cannot see why) through H. Ingrams statement on those pages of his 1931 masterwork; reported previously on Forum as "Here is an important passage from W. H. INGRAMS who was an official advisor to the British governor and unusually advisor to the Sultan of Zanzibar variously from about 1919 (published in 1931) in which he describes"~

Quote" The only performance or dance of the Arabs is the sword dance, RAZHA, accompanied by an orchestra of drums while the performers armed with swords and Jambiyya and small shields of rhinoceros hide indulge in mimic contests leaping about and weilding their swords in a truly marvellous way".Unquote.

This was not a Zanzibari dance. W. H. Ingrams goes on to explain that this was only carried out by the Manga (those born in Muscat) not those Mwarcha (those born in Zanzibar).

I vouch for the fact that this was not a Zanzibari dance because it is part of the Funun practiced by Omanis and in that sword spectacle The Razha the dancing sword is used with the Terrs Shield; The Sword blade being flat spatulate tipped, round ended, sharp on both edges, flexible and mounted with a long Omani Hilt.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Note; W H Ingrams was a well respected historian known in his day for his brilliant rendition on "Zanzibar and its Peoples" which I outline as;

Quote" This reprint of this celebrated classic text on Zanzibar makes available again the remarkably comprehensive account of the Island of Cloves, written by W. H. Ingrams and first published in 1931. Zanzibar, Its History and Its People is essentially an historical ethnography of Zanzibar. The author describes local legends, and their important social function in recording and constituting the oral history of the island. Ingrams' extensive observations and personal experiences - both on the main island of Unguja and Pemba and the smaller islands which make up Zanzibar - provide a detailed and lively account of society at the time and make engaging reading. Zanzibar, Its History and Its People is a comprehensive work, perhaps daunting on account of its size, but a joy to read and a rich resource." Said El-Gheithy, The Sayyida Salme Foundation."Unquote.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Forum...All....It has come to my notice that certain facts delivered here by me have come into question and whilst naturally in the course of polite interchange and scholastic manouvring I quite accept that certain points may come as a surprise or that obscure references not always available to everyone (though all the references in this regard are) may seem incredulous but references they are and in the case of Wh Ingrams they are immaculately recorded in his diaries... and in a book he had published called Zanzibar and Its Peoples in 1931. ( I beklieve it was first done in 1927 according to another source...at the base of this list viz;

On the British
period in Zanzibar
and East Africa, and the
precceding period of Bü Safiıdı rule,
see for example L.W.
Hollingsworth,
Zanzibar under
the Foreign Office 1890-1913
, London,
1953, N.R.Bennet,
A History of the Arab State of
Zanzibar
, London,
1978,
M.L.Lofchie,
Zanzibar. Background to Revolution
, Princeton Univ.
Press, 1965. See also the
accounts given by R.N.Lyne,
Zanzibar in
Contemporary Times
, Hurst&Blackett, London,
1905,

and W.H.
Ingrams,
Zanzibar. Its History and its Peoples
, London, 1927

I go into some detail about this author and his vast experience in "Kattara for comments" though he is also important since his involvement in the music and dance of the region was indeed a speciality and further he was a historian and much involved in the Zanzibar Museum structuring...from the outset. It is in his coverage of Music Songs and Dances in Chapter 39 page 399 if my memory serves me well that he outlines the details current to the discussion others have brought to this table.

Some offence appears to have developed (though I cannot see why) in his statement on those pages of his 1931 masterwork which stated Quote" Here is an important passage from W. H. INGRAMS who was an official advisor to the British governor and unusually advisor to the Sultan of Zanzibar variously from about 1919 (published in 1931) in which he describes~

Quote" The only performance or dance of the Arabs is the sword dance, RAZHA, accompanied by an orchestra of drums while the performers armed with swords and Jambiyya and small shields of rhinoceros hide indulge in mimic contests. leaping about and weilding their swords in a truly marvellous way".Unquote.

This was not a Zanzibari dance. W. H. Ingrams goes on to explain that this was only carried out by the Manga (those born in Muscat) not those Mwarcha (those born in Zanzibar).

I vouch for the fact that this was not a Zanzibari dance because it is part of the Funun practiced in Oman and in that sword spectacle The Razha the dancing sword is used with the Terrs Shield. The Sword blade being flat spatulate tipped, round ended, sharp on both edges and Flexible mounted with a long Omani Hilt.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Well that makes the water Muddier but just feature more untruths. Disguised within a list of references.


I have great respect for W. Ingrams work About Zanzibar. Its not his statements or words I doubt....

You mention Chapter 39 pages 399

chapter 37 starts on page 399

it covers music & dance as you say.

No mention of swords is made. None... Never mind your fictitious quote..

Chapter 38 on page 411 continues about music & dance.
No mention of swords is made. None... Never mind your fictitious quote..

{Although it does mention a song sang by the genital mutilator while sharpening his knife. "to frighten"}

Chapter 39 is about nature & starts on page. 423.

If you say your not making up falsehoods & lies.

Then please supply the necessary quote about your statement..

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Ingram is careful to point out that Omanis or Manga as they were known... only danced with the straight Omani dancing sword.
.

Because the truth is, Its not true. Its not in the book

You made it up. It is a lie.

Ingram never said it.

Spiral

[David]

Ibrahiim, what Spiral is saying is that the Ingrams quote simply states "swords", not what kind or shaped swords or whether or not they were stiff or flexible blades. Your conclusion is therefore an inference based upon what you know of the Razha sword dance, though i am not certain that it stands as proof that the type of sword other are claiming here does not exist.
Here is a link to an entry on the Razha which does indeed seem to support that this dance is performed with flexible blades, though there is nothing here about the origins of the dance itself or what swords may or may not have been used the very first or subsequent times it was performed. Just as Morris sword dancing is done with dulled blades made specifically for the dance it does seem likely to me that when this dance was first created it was done to some extent with true combat blades.
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.230...21104396533277

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by David

Ibrahiim, what Spiral is saying is that the Ingrams quote simply states "swords", not what kind or shaped swords or whether or not they were stiff or flexible blades. Your conclusion is therefore an inference based upon what you know of the Razha sword dance, though i am not certain that it stands as proof that the type of sword other are claiming here does not exist.
Here is a link to an entry on the Razha which does indeed seem to support that this dance is performed with flexible blades, though there is nothing here about the origins of the dance itself or what swords may or may not have been used the very first or subsequent times it was performed. Just as Morris sword dancing is done with dulled blades made specifically for the dance it does seem likely to me that when this dance was first created it was done to some extent with true combat blades.
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.230...21104396533277

I think that the link you kindly provided says it all...that the dance was performed before starting out on a raid. It would seem very unlikely that after the dance, the swords used there were changed for fighting swords.

[A.alnakkas]

So basically, Ibrahim's argument to be summed up about the straight Omani saif (called kattara by western collectors but confirmed to be simply called saif by Omanis while the curved version is named kattara) is a dancing sword ONLY for 300 years or so is the following:

1- a quote that doesnt exist.
2- modern made swords.
3- claiming genuine antiques with non-flexible blades to be fakes. Which is baffling to say the least.
4- Using a news article that speaks about the modern dancing sword and that its not sharp "to avoid injury" and using it as some sort of evidence that the whole sword type is dancing only.
5- Using obvious fakes with poor taste mounts as some sort of evidence.
6- Lack of a 'dancing' katara that isnt 2 days old.
7- Using items altered in his shop as evidence.

At the risk of being banned, I call bullshit when I see it.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

I think that the link you kindly provided says it all...that the dance was performed before starting out on a raid. It would seem very unlikely that after the dance, the swords used there were changed for fighting swords.

Salaams khanjar 1. Why not?.. The dancing sword was part of the tribal infantrymans kit. Most of what these guards did was salutation and pageant. They needed the Heraldic item to do all of them.

As a physical effort I agree done to intensity the mimic fight could have been quite energetic and maybe they got pumped up doing it... but they didnt go off and attack anyone with these wobbly blades and they didn't have another sword like it with a hard blade... but if a sword was needed... a quick diversion down the Fort Armoury and draw a Battle Sword .. or in fact no swords .. Guns only.. The Abufuttila..and/or spears.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by David

Ibrahiim, what Spiral is saying is that the Ingrams quote simply states "swords", not what kind or shaped swords or whether or not they were stiff or flexible blades. Your conclusion is therefore an inference based upon what you know of the Razha sword dance, though i am not certain that it stands as proof that the type of sword other are claiming here does not exist.
Here is a link to an entry on the Razha which does indeed seem to support that this dance is performed with flexible blades, though there is nothing here about the origins of the dance itself or what swords may or may not have been used the very first or subsequent times it was performed. Just as Morris sword dancing is done with dulled blades made specifically for the dance it does seem likely to me that when this dance was first created it was done to some extent with true combat blades.
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.230...21104396533277

Salaams David and thank you for your excellent reference on the dance routine. I simply cannot trace in my vast pile of notes the reference in Ingrams but I am sure it is there but he had several print runs over the decades...I'm sure it will pop up...

What your reference indicates is that ...first there was also another dance with daggers ... I will set that aside first as from another Funun Genre called the "Baraa..." very much part of the Funun in the Salalah or Dhofar region.

On the Dancing Sword what you say is partly right... before the springy dancing sword the Battle Sword was used in the Funun... (it goes way back thats why its called "the traditions")... It didn't suddenly start with the dancing sword. This explains why the accoutrement..the Terrs ... and the sharp edges and round tip are copied onto the dancer... from the Battle Sword. In this regard it is time specific as an invention at or about the start of the current dynasty but which I think is 70 or 80 years later... in the reign of Said bin Sultan who ruled 1804 to 1856...

Your reference describes the Razha.... (I was not accurate in describing that) It involves the lines of dancing participants... The other pantomime or semi contest is the mimic fight...with 2 participants and the single winning point won by touching the opponents thumb behind his terrs shield.

It is however vital to separate the two functions of fighting sword and dancer. The dancer was never a fighting sword and no other derivitive of it existed with some thicker blade... It just is not there. If it was the museums would have them hanging on the walls and in glass cases and with write ups....None ! The Reference work from Richardson and Dorr would be teaming with them.... and the simple question to fathers, grandfathers and elders ... Was this sword or anything similar ever used in fighting?.... Puzzled looks.... Retorts like "are you crackers"?... hahaha!! general mirth and poking of fun and derision....and mutterings.... No way.

It therefor begs the question... where have these thicker heavier non flexible blades come from.... They are post 1970 Muttrah rehilts as described.

Yes you are correct in that I know what the sword is and indeed it is an inference logically based ... The Manga were the dancers from Muscat ... This was the Funun... so knowing that the traditions were only done with the dancer....etc... Inference...

I said there was no silver bullet at my summary, however, the great body of work is indicative of the heraldic, non combat dancer... with the flexible blade.... No other weapon based upon this form ever existed.

Thank you for your post.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams David and thank you for your excellent reference on the dance routine. I simply cannot trace in my vast pile of notes the reference in Ingrams but I am sure it is there but he had several print runs over the decades...I'm sure it will pop up...
.

Bonjour Ibrahim!

You supposedly had your reference . 3 days ago when you posted this .

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams all ~Readers may recall that the famous historian on Zanzibar; H. Ingrams wrote about Manga(Omani) and non Manga(African Zanzibari tribals) and the difference in the way they danced using quite different swords m,any of which were fighting blades.... I found the sketch which illustrates that in terms of the latter style. It could be said that the African style is more frenzied and without the rhythmic structure of the Omani technique and the swords are anything with a blade curved or any shape and long guns and whatever else comes to hand...

Ingram is careful to point out that Omanis or Manga as they were known... only danced with the straight Omani dancing sword.
Here is an important passage from W. H. INGRAMS who was an official advisor to the British governor and unusually advisor to the Sultan of Zanzibar variously from about 1919 (published in 1931) in which he describes~

" The only performance or dance of the Arabs is the sword dance, RAZHA, accompanied by an orchestra of drums while the performers armed with swords and Jambiyya and small shields of rhinoceros hide indulge in mimic contests; leaping about and weilding their swords in a truly marvellous way".

.

You were very precise then... Some haven't notice you only play confused ^ muddy the waters when your caught out. Your quite confident & concise when on the attack.

There have been several print runs... all of the same text! there called reprints, there not translations or interpretations!

So to reiterate you state.

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Ingram is careful to point out that Omanis or Manga as they were known... only danced with the straight Omani dancing sword.
.

And that is a lie.

It really is that simple.

Spiral