Mexican/Spanish colonial spear points

machinist · 20th July 2014, 09:05 PM

Thanks for the response Jim. I am still hoping to find confirmation one way or the other about the provenance of these things. The presidio in Santa Barbara has a couple on display and I could try and find out whether they were donated or excavated. If I search for "Spanish colonial spear points" and similar search terms on the web I see a lot of very diverse points some of which obviously originated in China, the Philippines, or other Asian locals and it is tempting to dismiss those as just a seller trying for that extra dollar that a "colonial Americas" tag gives a weapon but there were more than two centuries of Manila galleons trading across the Pacific and some of those must have brought back weapons as part of the haul, even if not part of the profitable load at least as souvenirs as sharp and pointy things rate high on the list of things men like to take home.

In the case of these small points I do not see any ties to other old cultures and I do not see an obvious "pipeline" of modern fakery as may be seen from sources in India, China, or other places.
All it would take to make me happy on this is one found in a legitimate archaeological setting but until that happens it will just be undecided.

M ELEY · 20th July 2014, 09:21 PM

Nice pieces! Definitely period and not fakes. Question is, what are they? While it is possible that they might be boarding pike heads, they don't fit the standard patterns seen on regulated British and European types. Colonial American/WAr 1812 are possible, being that blacksmith-made pieces of that time had no specific conformity just yet. They are too well put together to be simple trench spears/pikes. Jim is correct that they don't match the pics in Brown's 'American Polearms' book, but I still think they could be Span colonial(?). The odd construction on the one point with the almost trapahezon shape got me to thinking about Chinese or Tibetan, but the general form of the whole piece looks more New World. A mystery, but I do like these very much!

Jim McDougall · 21st July 2014, 01:05 AM

Eureka!!! I think I found it!!
In "Southwestern Colonial Ironwork: The Spanish Blacksmithing Tradition from Texas to California" by Marc Simmons and Frank Turley, New Mexico, 1980....on p.87, are shown several of these and they are ox goads ('puntas de buey'), which were actually an old world implement used to prod oxen with wooden rod with steel tip, in Spain it was called a 'garrocha' and in the New World, as noted.

They are a socketed iron point, most examples have at the base of the point a decorative motif formed by edge filing. These were attached to a wooden pole or handle They were formed from a single piece of stock and one end was tapered to a square sectioned point. The other was hammered thin flared, then rolled to form a socket. The seam was often left open, but the smith if he chose could weld it solid over a mandrel.

The examples seen have much the same decorative motif, and are remarkably similar.

While this seems to place this as more of an implement, it must be remembered that on the frontier most everything had utilitarian uses and could easily serve as a weapon as required . The well known espada ancha, while obviously a sword, became what is commonly known as the machete as they were used most often in clearing chapparal by the soldados and horsemen.

** please pardon faux pas in the book title "Spanish Military Weapons" I meant Brinckerhoff & Chamberlain.....I always think Pierce, oops and forget about Brinckerhoff.

M ELEY · 21st July 2014, 01:33 AM

Wow, Jim! Incredible work! You are by far the most frequent enlightener when it comes to mystery things! I've often seen pole head types with the open seam and questioned how they could have effectively served as a weapon, being that they might wobble. Of course I had forgotten about a utilitarian usage for such. Many of these are listed as 'Mexican lance heads' and such throughout the net. Glad to have a difinitive answer, anyway.

Timo Nieminen · 21st July 2014, 01:58 AM

Open sockets can work for weapons, and for tools for heavy-duty cutting and chopping. However, an open socket isn't as strong, and the socket walls will need to be thicker, compared with a socket welded closed. Which will make the head heavier, which is not always desirable in a weapon. But open sockets are common enough on African spears, and Dark Ages European spears.

The relevant page, with picture: http://books.google.com/books?id=ASX...=PA87&lpg=PA87

One way to check whether a possible lance head is a weapon or a tool would be to test the hardness of the iron/steel. If it's hardened steel, it isn't an ox goad. Of course, some weapon heads weren't hardened steel, but good lance heads tend to be. Without actually testing the hardness, there can be clues: if it's made in two pieces, with a point welded on to a base and socket, there's a good chance it's a hard steel point and an iron base.

Jim McDougall · 21st July 2014, 03:53 AM

Thanks so much Mark! I got lucky finding these and just thought I might find similar iron work in the blacksmith book which I haven't really had out for a long time. I do recall during research a while back it was considered the definitive book on the iron work of these regions especially New Mexico
The images are dead ringers for these.

machinist · 21st July 2014, 06:47 AM

This is deja vu all over again, my first thread here was about some "weapons" that turned out to be tools.
On one hand I am a little sad they are not spear points (except perhaps once in a while) but also thrilled to see the mystery solved.
Thank you all for your interest and work on this, I think Jim solved it and we can all feel good about an issue resolved.

21st July 2014, 01:58 AM	#5
Timo Nieminen Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 422	Open sockets can work for weapons, and for tools for heavy-duty cutting and chopping. However, an open socket isn't as strong, and the socket walls will need to be thicker, compared with a socket welded closed. Which will make the head heavier, which is not always desirable in a weapon. But open sockets are common enough on African spears, and Dark Ages European spears. The relevant page, with picture: http://books.google.com/books?id=ASX...=PA87&lpg=PA87 One way to check whether a possible lance head is a weapon or a tool would be to test the hardness of the iron/steel. If it's hardened steel, it isn't an ox goad. Of course, some weapon heads weren't hardened steel, but good lance heads tend to be. Without actually testing the hardness, there can be clues: if it's made in two pieces, with a point welded on to a base and socket, there's a good chance it's a hard steel point and an iron base. Last edited by Timo Nieminen; 21st July 2014 at 02:11 AM.

20th July 2014, 09:05 PM	#1
machinist Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 93	Thanks for the response Jim. I am still hoping to find confirmation one way or the other about the provenance of these things. The presidio in Santa Barbara has a couple on display and I could try and find out whether they were donated or excavated. If I search for "Spanish colonial spear points" and similar search terms on the web I see a lot of very diverse points some of which obviously originated in China, the Philippines, or other Asian locals and it is tempting to dismiss those as just a seller trying for that extra dollar that a "colonial Americas" tag gives a weapon but there were more than two centuries of Manila galleons trading across the Pacific and some of those must have brought back weapons as part of the haul, even if not part of the profitable load at least as souvenirs as sharp and pointy things rate high on the list of things men like to take home. In the case of these small points I do not see any ties to other old cultures and I do not see an obvious "pipeline" of modern fakery as may be seen from sources in India, China, or other places. All it would take to make me happy on this is one found in a legitimate archaeological setting but until that happens it will just be undecided.

20th July 2014, 09:21 PM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,196	Nice pieces! Definitely period and not fakes. Question is, what are they? While it is possible that they might be boarding pike heads, they don't fit the standard patterns seen on regulated British and European types. Colonial American/WAr 1812 are possible, being that blacksmith-made pieces of that time had no specific conformity just yet. They are too well put together to be simple trench spears/pikes. Jim is correct that they don't match the pics in Brown's 'American Polearms' book, but I still think they could be Span colonial(?). The odd construction on the one point with the almost trapahezon shape got me to thinking about Chinese or Tibetan, but the general form of the whole piece looks more New World. A mystery, but I do like these very much!

21st July 2014, 01:05 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,571	Eureka!!! I think I found it!! In "Southwestern Colonial Ironwork: The Spanish Blacksmithing Tradition from Texas to California" by Marc Simmons and Frank Turley, New Mexico, 1980....on p.87, are shown several of these and they are ox goads ('puntas de buey'), which were actually an old world implement used to prod oxen with wooden rod with steel tip, in Spain it was called a 'garrocha' and in the New World, as noted. They are a socketed iron point, most examples have at the base of the point a decorative motif formed by edge filing. These were attached to a wooden pole or handle They were formed from a single piece of stock and one end was tapered to a square sectioned point. The other was hammered thin flared, then rolled to form a socket. The seam was often left open, but the smith if he chose could weld it solid over a mandrel. The examples seen have much the same decorative motif, and are remarkably similar. While this seems to place this as more of an implement, it must be remembered that on the frontier most everything had utilitarian uses and could easily serve as a weapon as required . The well known espada ancha, while obviously a sword, became what is commonly known as the machete as they were used most often in clearing chapparal by the soldados and horsemen. ** please pardon faux pas in the book title "Spanish Military Weapons" I meant Brinckerhoff & Chamberlain.....I always think Pierce, oops and forget about Brinckerhoff.

21st July 2014, 01:33 AM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,196	Wow, Jim! Incredible work! You are by far the most frequent enlightener when it comes to mystery things! I've often seen pole head types with the open seam and questioned how they could have effectively served as a weapon, being that they might wobble. Of course I had forgotten about a utilitarian usage for such. Many of these are listed as 'Mexican lance heads' and such throughout the net. Glad to have a difinitive answer, anyway.

21st July 2014, 03:53 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,571	Thanks so much Mark! I got lucky finding these and just thought I might find similar iron work in the blacksmith book which I haven't really had out for a long time. I do recall during research a while back it was considered the definitive book on the iron work of these regions especially New Mexico The images are dead ringers for these.

21st July 2014, 06:47 AM	#7
machinist Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 93	This is deja vu all over again, my first thread here was about some "weapons" that turned out to be tools. On one hand I am a little sad they are not spear points (except perhaps once in a while) but also thrilled to see the mystery solved. Thank you all for your interest and work on this, I think Jim solved it and we can all feel good about an issue resolved.