The Omani Sayf. ( The Omani Straight Dancing Sword)

[David]

Originally Posted by spiral

Certainly, David, IMHO Tipu is the fellow on the right in the group photo, I would guess taken a decade or so later than the singular photo.

There is a resemblance to the chap on left of photo, perhaps he is a relative of Tipu or just carries very similar racial stereotypic features being half Omani half Swaheli.

I think the age of the chap on the left nearer matches the age of the Tipu portrait, as well, increases there similarities.

spiral

I'm sorry Spiral, but the when i look at post #157 the guy on the right (with the full gray beard) in the group photo is most definitely NOT the man in the singular photo situated above the group photo. Their facial features are completely different. The man on the left however matches the facial features of the singular photo perfectly, albeit he is a little older in the group picture.

[Emanuel]

Hello,

I had the same reaction as David when looking at the pictures of Tippu Tip. Lots of Google images confirm that this is the gentleman on the RIGHT side of the group photo in post #166.

The photo shown in post #160 does come up on Google as well. Considering the very different facial features, however, I suggest that the "younger" photo (#160) is actually a totally different person. The bulbous eyes with the very deep bags under the eyes, and the gaunt face and thin nose contrast with Tippu's fuller face and high cheekbones.

Attached are other pics of Tippu Tip

Emanuel

[Emanuel]

The younger photo (#160) is referred in a Wikipedia article from an post on the older Vikingsword forum : http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002674.html, which appears to have the photo from http://bakadanka.blogspot.ca/2013/02...orbeelden.html .

The photo in question appears to have been taken by a Bojan Breceli in the 1860s. THis would put it about 30 years earlier than the group photo, taken in 1890.

Emanuel

[spiral]

David & Emmanuel,

I had faith that the photos were as listed, I can see why you doubt it though.

I didn't take the photos & wasn't there.

I believe both could be Tippo, A leader of men at 30 compared to a man riddled with disease & blindness 30 years later can look very different, chubby cheeks can hide high cheekbones etc. Age & Illness can do terrible things to a man. Ive seen cancer make once powerfull men look like little sparrows.

But in truth, how could I be truly certain? There old photos of the net.

Hope you get to the bottom of it! It would be nice to know.

All the best.

Spiral

[Jim McDougall]

Really interesting forensics here guys!! It would seem like it would be of little importance which image is of this man, but since we are trying to ascertain his identity and which type sword he is holding, that goes to relevance. I suppose we have to retain the factor that as mentioned in other discussion, there remains the possibility of photographers props.

This I seem to recall was sometimes the case in the latter 19th century with American Indians photographed with sometimes incongruent arms such as swords. I believe Civil War photos from studios often used the usual Colt revolver and some Bowie knives etc. held in notable position .

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Really interesting forensics here guys!! It would seem like it would be of little importance which image is of this man, but since we are trying to ascertain his identity and which type sword he is holding, that goes to relevance. I suppose we have to retain the factor that as mentioned in other discussion, there remains the possibility of photographers props.

This I seem to recall was sometimes the case in the latter 19th century with American Indians photographed with sometimes incongruent arms such as swords. I believe Civil War photos from studios often used the usual Colt revolver and some Bowie knives etc. held in notable position .

Salaams Jim... True indeed and the same goes over here... I can show loads of prop studio pictures with swords 'n daggers added to clients ... It was part of the business... In fact I was just diving on some detail about Zanzibar and noted that the Goan immigrants chose photography as one of their skills ...along with jewellery making and musical instrument makers!

On the subject of Tippu Tip or Tippu Tib and avoiding the Disneyesque terms others seem to be slapping on him...the pictures show him singly at a younger age with a curved Omani Kattara and in the other picture much later on the right of a line of 4 sitting next to Wali Mohd...a local governor... from which he may well have borrowed the straight dancing sword...or switched it.

I show Wali Mohd singly at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...attara+comments at #253 with the sword that Tippu Tib is holding in the 4 man picture..

The chap on the left of the 4 man line..I have in another picture below and he could be the brother or uncle of the ruler...for what its worth. The reference is from the Getty Images website and the character is third person from the right and perhaps, as I say, a relative of the Ruler.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all...

I almost forgot to include the following dancing sword style which is essentially straight and certainly as flexible ...and you will be delighted to hear even more deadly looking for the imagined combat role for which it was never used. This is simply a dancing sword variant with a more vicious blade. It is said that the blade was bathed in blood etc etc ... which is more connected to the hype than reality ... but it is worth looking at since it does belong to the same family of Omani dancing swords....another heraldic pageantry sword. The terminology in the Richardson and Dorr Herritage document from which I borrowed the picture below is "Flambouyant".. I owned a few and picture one at #68.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[David]

Originally Posted by spiral

David & Emmanuel,

I had faith that the photos were as listed, I can see why you doubt it though.

I didn't take the photos & wasn't there.

I believe both could be Tippo, A leader of men at 30 compared to a man riddled with disease & blindness 30 years later can look very different, chubby cheeks can hide high cheekbones etc. Age & Illness can do terrible things to a man. Ive seen cancer make once powerfull men look like little sparrows.

But in truth, how could I be truly certain? There old photos of the net.

Hope you get to the bottom of it! It would be nice to know.

All the best.

Spiral

Yes, please keep in mind that i am not really questioning your knowledge as much as the internet sources. When i search the net for photos of this fellow i definitely found more images that do not appear to be the same man, so i do believe that somebody got their resources confused somewhere along the lines. I think the question remains for now as to who the real Tippo is in these photos. As you may know, i do not particularly consider Wikipedia to be a consistently accurate source.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by David

Yes, please keep in mind that i am not really questioning your knowledge as much as the internet sources. When i search the net for photos of this fellow i definitely found more images that do not appear to be the same man, so i do believe that somebody got their resources confused somewhere along the lines. I think the question remains for now as to who the real Tippo is in these photos. As you may know, i do not particularly consider Wikipedia to be a consistently accurate source.

No problem David. And I agree about Wikipedia,

As I said I cant vouch for the photo , but it looks the same man to me, just ravaged by time & disease. {There but for the grace of God.... }



Some more pics. of Tippi as the English named him, {Spelling can vary it was said in a childlike nuance & more phonetic than anything, in my impression.} I think the shown picture help link the to earlier pics perhaps? taken sometime between the other two under discusian.


I see Ibrahin agrees with me, as well...

It Would be fascinating to be 100% certain though.

Spiral



.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by spiral

No problem David. And I agree about Wikipedia,

As I said I cant vouch for the photo , but it looks the same man to me, just ravaged by time & disease. {There but for the grace of God.... }



Some more pics. of Tippi as the English named him, {Spelling can vary it was said in a childlike nuance & more phonetic than anything, in my impression.} I think the shown picture help link the to earlier pics perhaps? taken sometime between the other two under discusian.


I see Ibrahin agrees with me, as well...

It Would be fascinating to be 100% certain though.

Spiral



.

Note the two other indicators of national recognition of the dynastic rule invented at the time of Said bin Sultan..ruled 1804 til 1856 who moved the capital on Oman to Zanzibar ~and worn here by Tippu Tib..

The royal turban and the royal khanjar. Zanzibar thence became an important hub and the fact based on the slave trade controlled from there is too inviting to ignore as to the linkage from Omani Kattara to the Omani Dancing sword and the transfer of hilts to the Iconic dancing style...for pageants and dancing...only.

[spiral]

I notice Ibrahim you make no mention of the Yemini flexible blade sword.

Could this perhaps be the true origin of the Omani flexible sword?

How do you perceive the connection?

Spiral

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All, From time a revue or summary of structures allows clarity, focus, and direction and directs readers at the supporting posts and so that their research may be enhanced. I place the following for that purpose in respect of The Omani Dancing Sword.

Introduction.
The ensemble of Omani Swords comprises in order of oldest first as under;
1. The Omani Battle Sword AKA Sayf Al Yamaani.
2. The Omani Kattara.
3. The Omani Sayf (Sayf); The dancing sword.

*4. The Omani Shamshiir. Placed 4th but the date of its inauguration may place it as older that some of the swords above I place it here with an asterisk. . for later closer analysis date wise.

In order to address the complex questions which inevitably arise out of the contentious issue involving Omani swords and their peculiar provenance I place a summary of investigation so far on the details and influences that bring us to this point in proceedings and to remind readers that prior to these considerations Forum had very scant material to hand and thus at present Library is well served by the now vast amount of material to hand.
For the complete story the following need to be read since there is the inevitable interlinking through history of forms 1, 2 and 3 above and to which I add TVVs fine introduction to the problem in his Kattara for Comments. Thus the threads to study are:

1. Kattara for comments.
2. The Old Omani Battle Sword.
3. The Omani Dancing Sword.
4. The Omani Kattara.
5. The Omani Shamshiir.

The issue.
The main bones of contention are understandable…The fact is that the Omani Dancing sword looks warlike … as warlike now as it did to the few Europeans who reported upon seeing it in the early 19th C. The fact that out there in the world abroad there are many Omani looking swords of dance with stiff blades which must therefore have been for fighting or fighting and dancing…or were they?

Thus to assist members in this fog I propose the following broad based summary so that the issue may be clearer..This is not the final proof nor does it comprise the silver bullet solution but offers comprehensive discussion and details which though it does not point to a check mate does point the finger at probable cause… Maybe we will never produce the absolute answer… I would be amazed if we did since that is often the nature of Ethnographic research as is the time honoured technique of creating a possible theory based on what we are seeing countered by other well thought out and researched alternative proposals occasionally presented on a pretty warmed up cauldron of well meaning sparks and the occasional flame on the anvil of Forum discussion…i.e. If you think you know another cause lets hear it !

I list a number of topics that I have ventured into concerning Omani swords which on their own assume notes of interest but when grouped together offer a compendium of potential evidence, though, without absolute proof but which are the essence of the detail amassed in this regard.

The Omani Dancing Sword . AKA The Omani Sayf (Saif)
“Between 1744 and perhaps about 1810 this sword was designed as a heraldic dynasty and salutation sword carried by all Palace Guards or Askeris in Oman. The hilt is identical to the single edged Omani Kattara but the blade is flexible and spatulate tipped for its main role in The Traditions… It has continued in that role with the same Dynasty since its design until today. No battle has been identified in which it was used to fight with”. Because of some enterprising souk merchants who from 1970 (when Oman emerged from the virtual dark ages) swords with stiff blades have appeared as rehilts in various souks but mainly at Mutrah where it is estimated that in over 40 years thousands have been sold to tourists and which have somewhat corrupted collections all over the world..

To support this statement I offer the following documented information viewable at the threads above for inspection summarized as follows viz;


The 10 Point Summary. The Omani Dancing Sword.

1. This straight flexible sword whose hilt was designed from the curved Kattara was given the privilege of being accompanied by the Terrs Shield usually carried into battle with the Old Omani Battle Sword...It was sharp on both edges and round tipped in honour of the forefathers who went into battle with its forerunner; The Omani Battle Sword (the two have been compared favourably at thread.) Its purpose was for pageantry and Dynastic Salutation only. Not for fighting.

2. A newspaper report by a sword maker in Ras Al Khaimer delved into the question of fighting with this sword and in a comprehensive column totally refuted the point… Neither was there any reaction by local sword or history experts concerning the report; for good reason perhaps? In no museum is the sword refered to as a Battle Sword...and in the Al Ain collection of Arab "weapons" it does not appear.

3. The vast and informative but almost unrecognised in ethnographic circles, Funun, a genre of pageant, dance and battle re-enactment pantomime forming the unwritten, handed down traditions vital to the study of Omani history and swords...and seen as a complete works at thread...This entire genre is completely foreign to normal researchers abroad who too often miss its importance. The dancing sword is The Funun instrument of Dynastic salutation… The two are inexorably linked.

4. In respect of the Zanzibar situation The slave trade, and the link to The Slavers Sword...much has been investigated including the important notes from H. Ingrams the secretary to the Ruler at Zanzibar and the significance of the Manga (Omani) dancers and their dancing swords opposed to the African and native Zanzibari equipment. In parallel to that it has been suggested that the Kattara originated in central Africa perhaps influenced by the Mendingo but anyway the long Omani Hilt appears to have been technically transferred to the new dancing sword … and may thus have been introduced via Zanzibar.

5. The manufacturing link of the Zutoot and other centres such as Nizwa, Sanau, Muscat...It is recorded that the wandering Gypsy of Oman who were a mixed Gypsy traveling people from probably the North West Frontier of India now incorporated into Omani tribes but entirely wandering in nature prior to 1970…who made dancing swords on Commission…Nowhere in the transcripts is there actual evidence of European trade blades linked to the dancing sword however the application of fullers may be a European aspect overlooked. I have no evidence of dancing swords carrying European markings... unlike the trade blades that made up the curved Omani Kattara situation which were virtually all European. If the Omani leadership wanted a dual purpose weapon / dancer why would they not perhaps simply have evolved the curved Kattara into that role ?

6. The strong influence of Said bin Sultan to whom the finger points as the motivator behind the dancing sword as Heraldic and Pageant. It was this ruler … during his reign who saw the introduction of several other iconic items worn in honour of the dynasty …viz The Royal Khanjar and the Royal Turban. The Royal Khanjar or the royal Hilt more correctly is also echoed in the same hilt being allocated to the Old Omani Battle Sword perhaps this is the third example during his reign of this kind of recognition… Could it be that the fourth is the adoption of the Omani Sayf; The Omani Dancing Sword with its very flexible blade for Pageants and Heraldic dynastic salutation.

7. Great care has been taken to identify the rehilting situation since 1970 till today prevalent in Mutrah Souk and responsible for several thousand swords drifting out to world collectors. It can be seen at thread where these originated and that because they have stiff blades they conveniently sidestepped local buyers because they cannot be buzzed in the air … a precondition for dancing swords… and because they appear from 1970 could hardly have been used here in 19th C battles…in Oman. These are Ethiopian blades and clearly identified on thread…

8. The mimic fight.. This has thrown more people than most things with this sword… The mimic fight is explained at thread and isn’t a fight but a one point scoring contest where the single winning point is won by touching the thumb of the opponents shield hand…end of contest. This is made possible by the flexible sword having a flat spatulate tip…Mimic fighting was not a bad way for guards to keep fit requiring dexterity, speed, balance and agility…It is part of the Funun.

9. The demise of blades owing to gunpowder. It is interesting that gunpowder eroded swords and spears but didn’t affect the dancing sword…why? The thread continues to examine its other employment not as a fighting sword but in its guard role as a Dynasty marker … supporter of the ruling Sultan and anchored in the traditions in the special genre reserved to honour the swordsmen of history. That is why it never vanished as did the spear and largely the Old Omani Battle sword though it survived being honoured with a royal hilt.

10. The Omani dancing sword is a weak bladed very flexible flat sword… It is no match for a hefty battle sword… It bends easily through 90 degrees and would be quickly overcome by a proper thick stiffer blade…The thread refers to Guards that carried it and in one sketch their spears and abu futtila … the real killers can be seen… but it is in what we do not see that is also important,… The Fort armouries with dozens of Old Omani Battle Swords for issue in time of strife… The guards duties which included pageantry and salutations meant they needed to have available their parade swords at all times… The Omani Dancing Sword filled that bill did it not?

Conclusion;
The finger of suspicion as to who brought on the design of sword known as The Omani Dancing Sword may be leveled at Said Bin Sultan who ruled 1804 to 1856 and thread identifies how he or his reign brought about other dynastic items. This pushes back the potential date of inauguration to after 1804…and it is further possible that the diffusion from palace guards to general population may also be later…date unspecified as yet. This is unchartered territory but under scrutiny…The National Museum which specializes in the Rule of Said bin Sultan may have some light to throw…and I shall endeavor to press them on the subject.
It could be, however, that the First ruler in this Dynasty who was an Immam was initially its instigator in about 1744...which also makes sense since it is a Dynastic Sword.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by spiral

I notice Ibrahim you make no mention of the Yemini flexible blade sword.

Could this perhaps be the true origin of the Omani flexible sword?

How do you perceive the connection?

Spiral

Not sure what you mean by flexible Yemeni sword? Do you mean like the sword at #185... That sword is the Ethiopian (of often German trade blade pedigree) which only got as far as Yemen Sanaa before having its hilt removed (The hilts were invariably Rhino Horn and went on to be re used on Jambia) and replaced with a rudimentary iron hilt in Sanaa souk backyard workshops ... Some were sold there prior to the trouble... but others were exported to Oman where they were again rehilted onto long Omani Hilts or sold as is... I have two. They are not flexible ~ Rehilted in Sanaa. Point 7 of #189 refers.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.