The Habaabi Khanjar/Jambia; FromThe Asir.

[kahnjar1]

I bow to your extensive research but I do wonder why you do not quote any sources......................

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

I bow to your extensive research but I do wonder why you do not quote any sources......................

Salaams Khanjar 1,
As I was explaining ...much of the research on ethnographic arms ~ especially in the difficult to reach arabian regions~is being done without a safety net and precious little supporting documentation of any great accuracy. I am as far away "technically" from the Asir and Al Hasa as you are...it is extremely difficult to visit..or believe me I would be there digging up the examples! So much utter nonsense is recorded... now that ought not to put off Forum research and it doesn't stop me..... Look at the discrepancies inserted into the records by Burton...and as you know once its documented its true...or it takes a lot of reversing...He had Moroccan and North African weapons slated as Zanzibari... !! I digress...but you see my point...

There often isn't a source! I use references some with completely spurious information...like the descriptions in www.Omanisilver.com where I noticed flowers engraved on the back of so called Omani Khanjars..It was your astute observation of the Khanjar in Omani silver by Ruth Hawley that is supposed to be Omani but is actually an Asir or al Hasa job (I'm still not certain). I use web site details all recorded ... I use Museums in Muscat and their huge double volume Richardson and Dorr...which is THE National Museum Doctrine and I know the form of Omani work so when something odd turns up I know its odd. I handle these weapons all the time so I get good at spotting discrepancies and in the case of swords I cracked all on my own the furious trade in rehilts ... which still continues unabated...in fact they sell more thesedays... I think if they stuck fake stickers on they would sell even more..

Just a last note on resources... I am absolutely certain that the best resource built up over the last few years is our own library which is now stacked with the latest doctrine and most updated discussion...even if it does get a little hot at times... thats the point about hot anvils ...They are hot.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Gentlemen, I would like to thank you for maintaining objectivity and composure as this complex discussion continues. As well noted, often discourse can become somewhat volatile as reactions to certain ideas and observations are presented, but what is important is to remain objective in any contesting and of course include as much proof or support as possible in rebuttal.

These discussions are far too important for personality issues, and personally I am more than impressed with the knowledge and perspective all of you have on these esoteric topics and which you impart here.

I must add that it seems well established that there are of course many older reflections, misperceptions and notations which have certainly given us a degree of distortion in developing useful material concerning these arms.
As well noted, particularly in 19th century as photography developed, the use of props, staging and other false impressions are notable hazards in our research.

Even in the woodcuts and other images representing these times and events, the artists license becomes a constant concern.

In my opinion I have always felt that slavers, in these cases as well as in Darfur in the Sudan, the drivers and bosses certainly would have used a bit of drama in their chosen accoutrements. I think of the kaskara types with full crocodile anatomy in their mounts, some I have seen with the hilt composed of entire foot as well as the scabbard entirely scaled hide. I met with the usual arguments that these were 'tourist' items, but my opinion remained firm as I found similar items in provenanced collections among other combative arms as well as personal discussions with an acquaintance who was a tribesman from Darfur. Naturally these do not comprise 'admissable' evidence, however they remain compelling.

In the case of the dancing swords themselves, I would submit that the concept of using actual combat swords in the form of ceremonial display here discussed as the Funun seems quite likely. Clearly much of this is tradition which developed out of martial hubris and eventually became a recognized celebration, and as well noted, the practice of sound in vibrating the sword blades would well dramatize the events. The 'sword dance' itself is well known in many cultures, I think of course of Scotland, but there are many others.
The field research shared here by Ibrahiim seems to reflect the instance where of course little actual documentation exists, though the standing tradition remains profoundly in place. To set hard and fast dates and regulation types of weapon to be used etc. would be it seems unlikely in these kinds of investigations, and I perceive most of what has been asserted here to in essence a 'working concept' to serve as a kind of guideline .

It seems fully conceivable that blades intended specifically for these events would have eventually been produced, and that actual weapons used in combat in early times or even later using arms mounted with the ever developing influx of trade blades, would have existed contemporarily.

As with most situations, especially in ad hoc circumstances, the use of these forms could certainly have interpolated. The planned or traditional events of course would likely have used the specifically produced weapons.
In more recent times, as the commercial aspects of weapons sales for collecting has advanced, and with the virtual opening of Oman to outside activity, naturally innovation has set aside any kind of adherence to such traditions and amalgamated the use of materials at hand.

It is well established that the trade blade phenomenon has monumentally complicated the study of ethnographic swords, developing conundrums which remain at best, speculative in attempting to find answers. Those of us who do engage tenaciously in attempting to do so regardless of the dangers of course feel profound frustration, anxiety and disappointment as regular emotions so adverse reactions are rather expected. However, we must remember we work here as a team, and one in my opinion the best in the business' as it were.

OK, off my soap box

As always,
Jim

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams Jim, Thank you for your timely comments ... In explaining the phenomena of unrecorded unwritten traditions in this way you underline the difficulty of researching in that vacuum... when in fact Omani people not so much tell you what they think you want to hear ...(thus sidestepping the deliberate lie) but are guarded in letting go of the unwritten almost secretive passed down tradition that really only flows from parent to child...Which is why all of the half dozen or so visitors to Oman in the early 19th C were wrong footed on swords.

People, I think, have realised that the added shock of Oman suddenly creaking open the door to modern civilisation in 1970 before which it was absolutely archaic, needs to be considered. There were no museums before that..in fact it was mediaeval in most respects. No schools to speak of other than two small units in Muscat and one in the South but no colleges or Universities or hospitals, clinics, tarmac roads or any sort of infrastructure... Nothing! You got sick ~ you got better ...or you died. Being born alive was down to chance.

The unwritten traditions of the Funun stretch back centuries to the start of the religious structure here in 751.AD . Not only is there evidence that the Sword and Shield were honoured but also Khanjars. The main two sword genres are in the Razha and the Yalhaa but there is another for the Khanjar called the Baraa ..

People simply baulk at the idea of in-use weapons or systems lasting nearly 2,000 years but it is well recorded by the late Anthony North in the first line of his introduction to Islamic Arms (V. and A. publication) ;

Quote''Unlike Western Arms the styles and shapes of Islamic arms did not continually change. Once an Islamic armourer had found a satisfactory design, it was often retained for many centuries." Unquote.

I think it throws people who still cannot perceive that the Old Omani Battle Sword which I have compared with the Abasiid weapon of the 9th C. can have been used as a weapon until very recently. Since the dancing sword owes its very existence to the Old Battle Sword it is crucial to understand its place and I urge readers to view the details ...Please see

The problem is that attempting to find the written word on the Old Omani Battle Sword which must have been used in Battle and traditional dancing in its early days is impossible, except by reverse engineering the entire concept...and where people demand proof ~ a bit of writing perhaps or a body in a grave holding the sword...You are aware that swords were not buried in the Islamic time with bodies... it was ruled against. Since hardly a man could read and write nor was it needed for the traditions where then can the facts be obtained other than reverse engineering and common sense?

The vital ingredients provided by the Funun need to be analysed carefully for clues..My analysis commenced ...in Zanzibar with the secretary to the Rulers Office "H. Ingrams" who pointed my research in the Funun direction noting that it was only the Omani contingent in Zanzibar that used the flexible saif at the pageants... The Manga(Omanis)...in the Funun not the native Africans.

Dancing with swords is as you point out universal but in Oman it has this peculiar link to the current dynasty which commenced in about 1744... but getting to the "silver bullet" section...; When and who ordered the sword to become the heraldic, dynasty, dancing and pageantry sword? That is the elusive point which may never be found...

The indicators are with Said bin Sultan since he instigated other dynastic key issues ... and he had a long balanced rule time of more than a half century.

My impulses seem to be drawn toward Zanzibar for many reasons..Said bin Sultan was the ideas man behind developing Zanzibar as the Omani capital and the slavers sword must have originated if not "from there" certainly "through there" as a hub for slavery. Enter Tippu Tip. The great slave merchant whose slave captains all wore the long hilted Kattara probably a sword developed from the Manding...and with a European single edge and heavy backblade... The Omani Kattara. From this someone devised the design leap onto the Omani Dancing Sword.. The question is who and when?

Tantalizing is the fact that Burton proposed that there were three swords of Zanzibar two of which were certainly not...and one other... The Omani Dancer. Was its first appearance in Zanzibar under Said Bin Sultan... Was Burton right; one out of three??

Unrelated to this is the Shamshiir ... a purebred ... with wootz blade etc and of the Persian style...worn by VVIP and Royalty though as you point out in photographs it was often artistic licence and swords could be switched around..The point is the Shamshiir though it was a great fighting sword blade was dripping in silver and gold on a superb scabbard and hugely expensive; was only a badge of office..These weren't issued en masse to troops of the line...Too expensive thus simply not a chance of that. But badge of Office ...yes.... though in fact all the swords had that attachment...as did the Khanjar. They could all be carried as a Badge of Office. They could not, however, all be carried as weapons.

Amidst all the hooplah on swords in the early 19th C Oman was fairly awash with two other weapons... which announced the demise of blades... The Abu Futtila and the Cannon... i.e. Gunpowder weapons. The first to fall by the wayside was the spear... I believe the next to decline was the old Omani battle Sword but clinging on as a royal hilted weapon well into the present day...I show the present Ruler with one on the site; The Old Omani Battle Sword.

Against this backdrop of blade decline is the concept of the dancing sword ...but that brings the story full circle so, with your permission Sir, I will stop.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Jim, Thank you for your timely comments ... In explaining the phenomena of unrecorded unwritten traditions in this way you underline the difficulty of researching in that vacuum... when in fact Omani people not so much tell you what they think you want to hear ...(thus sidestepping the deliberate lie) but are guarded in letting go of the unwritten almost secretive passed down tradition that really only flows from parent to child...Which is why all of the half dozen or so visitors to Oman in the early 19th C were wrong footed on swords.

People, I think, have realised that the added shock of Oman suddenly creaking open the door to modern civilisation in 1970 before which it was absolutely archaic, needs to be considered. There were no museums before that..in fact it was mediaeval in most respects. No schools to speak of other than two small units in Muscat and one in the South but no colleges or Universities or hospitals, clinics, tarmac roads or any sort of infrastructure... Nothing! You got sick ~ you got better ...or you died. Being born alive was down to chance.

The unwritten traditions of the Funun stretch back centuries to the start of the religious structure here in 751.AD . Not only is there evidence that the Sword and Shield were honoured but also Khanjars. The main two sword genres are in the Razha and the Yalhaa but there is another for the Khanjar called the Baraa ..

People simply baulk at the idea of in-use weapons or systems lasting nearly 2,000 years but it is well recorded by the late Anthony North in the first line of his introduction to Islamic Arms (V. and A. publication) ;

Quote''Unlike Western Arms the styles and shapes of Islamic arms did not continually change. Once an Islamic armourer had found a satisfactory design, it was often retained for many centuries." Unquote.

I think it throws people who still cannot perceive that the Old Omani Battle Sword which I have compared with the Abasiid weapon of the 9th C. can have been used as a weapon until very recently. Since the dancing sword owes its very existence to the Old Battle Sword it is crucial to understand its place and I urge readers to view the details ...Please see

The problem is that attempting to find the written word on the Old Omani Battle Sword which must have been used in Battle and traditional dancing in its early days is impossible, except by reverse engineering the entire concept...and where people demand proof ~ a bit of writing perhaps or a body in a grave holding the sword...You are aware that swords were not buried in the Islamic time with bodies... it was ruled against. Since hardly a man could read and write nor was it needed for the traditions where then can the facts be obtained other than reverse engineering and common sense?

The vital ingredients provided by the Funun need to be analysed carefully for clues..My analysis commenced ...in Zanzibar with the secretary to the Rulers Office "H. Ingrams" who pointed my research in the Funun direction noting that it was only the Omani contingent in Zanzibar that used the flexible saif at the pageants... The Manga(Omanis)...in the Funun not the native Africans.

Dancing with swords is as you point out universal but in Oman it has this peculiar link to the current dynasty which commenced in about 1744... but getting to the "silver bullet" section...; When and who ordered the sword to become the heraldic, dynasty, dancing and pageantry sword? That is the elusive point which may never be found...

The indicators are with Said bin Sultan since he instigated other dynastic key issues ... and he had a long balanced rule time of more than a half century.

My impulses seem to be drawn toward Zanzibar for many reasons..Said bin Sultan was the ideas man behind developing Zanzibar as the Omani capital and the slavers sword must have originated if not "from there" certainly "through there" as a hub for slavery. Enter Tippu Tip. The great slave merchant whose slave captains all wore the long hilted Kattara probably a sword developed from the Manding...and with a European single edge and heavy backblade... The Omani Kattara. From this someone devised the design leap onto the Omani Dancing Sword.. The question is who and when?

Tantalizing is the fact that Burton proposed that there were three swords of Zanzibar two of which were certainly not...and one other... The Omani Dancer. Was its first appearance in Zanzibar under Said Bin Sultan... Was Burton right; one out of three??

Unrelated to this is the Shamshiir ... a purebred ... with wootz blade etc and of the Persian style...worn by VVIP and Royalty though as you point out in photographs it was often artistic licence and swords could be switched around..The point is the Shamshiir though it was a great fighting sword blade was dripping in silver and gold on a superb scabbard and hugely expensive; was only a badge of office..These weren't issued en masse to troops of the line...Too expensive thus simply not a chance of that. But badge of Office ...yes.... though in fact all the swords had that attachment...as did the Khanjar. They could all be carried as a Badge of Office. They could not, however, all be carried as weapons.

Amidst all the hooplah on swords in the early 19th C Oman was fairly awash with two other weapons... which announced the demise of blades... The Abu Futtila and the Cannon... i.e. Gunpowder weapons. The first to fall by the wayside was the spear... I believe the next to decline was the old Omani battle Sword but clinging on as a royal hilted weapon well into the present day...I show the present Ruler with one on the site; The Old Omani Battle Sword.

Against this backdrop of blade decline is the concept of the dancing sword ...but that brings the story full circle so, with your permission Sir, I will stop.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Sorry but I fail to see what this has to do with the subject of this thread..........................

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Sorry but I fail to see what this has to do with the subject of this thread..........................

Salaams Khanjar 1~ It is a post in reply to the post above it... I take it as belonging to the batch of Arabian threads most of which are contentious in part ... and this was where it was placed... personally I was honoured to answer it.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you very much Ibrahiim, and for astutely realizing that my comments were indeed directed at the group of threads which have run concurrently and all addressing various scope of Arabian history and arms. As you note I was actually reiterating what my own opinion was concerning aspects of these, and I did not actually address the kahnjhar matter specifically because that particular segment is still clouded to me.

My main objective here was primarily to address collectively the profoundly present 'contention' which has constantly plagued these otherwise fascinating threads. My hope is that all participants in these will ascend to the higher goal of focus on subject matter without personal rancor. The great thread on Omani forts and cannon already has fallen victim to this and we have too much vested here to lose another.

Since the participants I intended to address have been engaged in all the threads I refer to in my post, and was prompted by the most current 'interactions' , it simply fell into this thread.

Thank you everybody for your consideration in the matter.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Sorry but I fail to see what this has to do with the subject of this thread..........................

Let's please leave moderation duties to the moderation team.