Incendiary quarrels/arrows/crossbow bolts

Matchlock · 17th July 2014, 05:58 AM

Well done, Andi

!

Thanks so much for detecting, and sharing, that great 2nd half 17th c. Ottoman incendiary arrow.

I have linked your post to my thread:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...621#post170621

That rare instance has been preserved at the Stadtmuseum of Klosterneuburg (museum of the City of Klosterneuburg) located at the Danube River, near Vienna, Lower Austria) ever since The Second Great Siege of Vienna by the Turks, 14 July through 12 September 1683!
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Ca..._of_Vienna.png

Please also cf. my thread:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...k+Suhl+Austria

Best,
Michael

Andi · 23rd August 2014, 10:50 PM

Just found on Internet Archive:
Page 15 of American Art Association: European arms and armour, mainly XV-XVI & XVII centuries. New York : Anderson Galleries, 1928. https://archive.org/details/europeanarmsarmo00amer_0

Its funny they write that this objects were found in a castle near Switzerland (where? In Austria, Liechtenstein, Germany, Italy, or France)

and that times (1928) it is most convincable that such pitch garlands were not shown in European museums or collections, as they were not so decorative like metallic arms and armour.

Marcus den toom · 19th December 2014, 02:44 PM

Two more books on the art of "feuerwerk" from 1420's and 1462. (links can be traced back to the beginning of the Ms).

http://dlib.gnm.de/item/Hs719/37/jpg/2000
http://dlib.gnm.de/item/Hs719/36/jpg/2000
http://dlib.gnm.de/item/Hs719/35/jpg/2000
http://dlib.gnm.de/item/Hs25801/35/jpg/2000
http://dlib.gnm.de/item/Hs25801/39/jpg/2000

These 2 pictures i found very interesting. The first link is that of the Grandes Chroniques de France 1332-1350 (http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer...._16_g_vi_f181v).
It shows a box with roped sticks (?) which are lit. the second link shows a page from the 1420s feuerwerkbuch with a similar roped stick.

http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/or...1e53aba85d.jpg
http://dlib.gnm.de/item/Hs25801/46/jpg/2000

And on an unrelated note, these pictures of barrel drilling i wanted to share.
http://dlib.gnm.de/item/Hs719/26/jpg/2000 (?)
http://dlib.gnm.de/item/Hs719/27/jpg/2000

Matchlock · 19th December 2014, 03:47 PM

Hi Marcus,

These sources of period illustrations are really very valuable discoveries - thank you so much!!!
You must have been quite busy toiling your way through all these Medieval codices for weeks, and tracing back the spare links which are hard enough to detect - though trying various key words on the Google search

...

Again, a great big thanks for sharing those historic treasures,
and best as ever,
Michl

Marcus den toom · 19th December 2014, 04:41 PM

Hi Michl,

It is indeed a huge labour to leave trough all those manuscripts, hoping to find a single piece which interest us.. though very well worth it in the end

especially when complimented like this. (it must have taken me 3 hours to get trough the Historique de France) :O

My goal for the past year has been to find even older sources than the Milemete manuscript.. evidence for guns in the late 13th and eealy 14th century (we know they should exist from written sources, but illustrations begin at 1326). I know it is a long shot but alonf the way i find many other very interesting things.

Matchlock · 19th December 2014, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus den toom

Hi Michl,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus den toom

My goal for the past year has been to find even older sources than the Milemete manuscript.. evidence for guns in the late 13th and eealy 14th century (we know they should exist from written sources, but illustrations begin at 1326). I know it is a long shot but alonf the way i find many other very interesting things.

You've been readin' my mind

, Marcus,

That's exactly what our troublesome search is all about - and I am absolutely convinced we will detect a source of illustration earlier than the two 1326-27 de Milemete mss., and in all probability even before 1300!

Powder and gun arrows must have been known, and employed, in Old Europe as well. Not only the Ancient Greek and Roman Empires used incendiary/fire arrows thousands of years ago - they were widely spread in Arabia as well. In China and Japan, people had been experimenting with incendiary and exploding stuff at least since the 13th c., and today we realize that the Vikings had landed on the North American east coast hundreds of years before Columbus and Amerigo Vespucci did.
After all, the Vikings doubtlessly were the most skilled and fearless sailors of the Middle Ages; they built the best ships and had a depth of knowledge of how to navigate just guided by the stars which the rest of 13th c. Central Europeans never even dreamed of at the time.

Best,
Michl

Andi · 19th December 2014, 07:23 PM

I would interpret this image the 7 lighted sticks on the first image of the Grandes Chroniques de France 1332-1350 (http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer...s_16_g_vi_f181v) as twisted beeswax candles made of two strings of beeswax wisted around each other. As shown on this younger illustrations from the Constance Council in 1465 showing clergymen distributing such hallowed candles or the third image of Friedrich Pacher from Brunek dated to 1480 showing St. Blasius with such a twisted candle. This type of candles is very common in the european medieval period. These images are the ones I had at hand, but there are also older images present.
And there are also exists some contemporary written sources about this special type of twisted candles.

17th July 2014, 05:58 AM	#1
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Well done, Andi! Thanks so much for detecting, and sharing, that great 2nd half 17th c. Ottoman incendiary arrow. I have linked your post to my thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...621#post170621 That rare instance has been preserved at the Stadtmuseum of Klosterneuburg (museum of the City of Klosterneuburg) located at the Danube River, near Vienna, Lower Austria) ever since The Second Great Siege of Vienna by the Turks, 14 July through 12 September 1683! http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Ca..._of_Vienna.png Please also cf. my thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...k+Suhl+Austria Best, Michael Last edited by Matchlock; 17th July 2014 at 07:49 AM.

23rd August 2014, 10:50 PM	#2
Andi Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Halstenbek, Germany Posts: 203	Just found on Internet Archive: Page 15 of American Art Association: European arms and armour, mainly XV-XVI & XVII centuries. New York : Anderson Galleries, 1928. https://archive.org/details/europeanarmsarmo00amer_0 Its funny they write that this objects were found in a *castle near Switzerland* (where? In Austria, Liechtenstein, Germany, Italy, or France) and that times (1928) it is most convincable that such pitch garlands were not shown in European museums or collections, as they were not so decorative like metallic arms and armour. Attached Images

19th December 2014, 02:44 PM	#3
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 534	Feuerwerkbuch 1420 1462 and Ms from 1332 Two more books on the art of "feuerwerk" from 1420's and 1462. (links can be traced back to the beginning of the Ms). http://dlib.gnm.de/item/Hs719/37/jpg/2000 http://dlib.gnm.de/item/Hs719/36/jpg/2000 http://dlib.gnm.de/item/Hs719/35/jpg/2000 http://dlib.gnm.de/item/Hs25801/35/jpg/2000 http://dlib.gnm.de/item/Hs25801/39/jpg/2000 These 2 pictures i found very interesting. The first link is that of the Grandes Chroniques de France 1332-1350 (http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer...._16_g_vi_f181v). It shows a box with roped sticks (?) which are lit. the second link shows a page from the 1420s feuerwerkbuch with a similar roped stick. http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/or...1e53aba85d.jpg http://dlib.gnm.de/item/Hs25801/46/jpg/2000 And on an unrelated note, these pictures of barrel drilling i wanted to share. http://dlib.gnm.de/item/Hs719/26/jpg/2000 (?) http://dlib.gnm.de/item/Hs719/27/jpg/2000

19th December 2014, 03:47 PM	#4
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Marcus, These sources of period illustrations are really very valuable discoveries - thank you so much!!! You must have been quite busy toiling your way through all these Medieval codices for weeks, and tracing back the spare links which are hard enough to detect - though trying various key words on the Google search ... Again, a great big thanks for sharing those historic treasures, and best as ever, Michl Last edited by Matchlock; 19th December 2014 at 05:02 PM.

19th December 2014, 07:23 PM	#7
Andi Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Halstenbek, Germany Posts: 203	I would interpret this image the 7 lighted sticks on the first image of the Grandes Chroniques de France 1332-1350 (http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer...s_16_g_vi_f181v) as twisted beeswax candles made of two strings of beeswax wisted around each other. As shown on this younger illustrations from the Constance Council in 1465 showing clergymen distributing such hallowed candles or the third image of Friedrich Pacher from Brunek dated to 1480 showing St. Blasius with such a twisted candle. This type of candles is very common in the european medieval period. These images are the ones I had at hand, but there are also older images present. And there are also exists some contemporary written sources about this special type of twisted candles. Attached Images

19th December 2014, 04:41 PM	#5
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 534	Hi Michl, It is indeed a huge labour to leave trough all those manuscripts, hoping to find a single piece which interest us.. though very well worth it in the end especially when complimented like this. (it must have taken me 3 hours to get trough the Historique de France) :O My goal for the past year has been to find even older sources than the Milemete manuscript.. evidence for guns in the late 13th and eealy 14th century (we know they should exist from written sources, but illustrations begin at 1326). I know it is a long shot but alonf the way i find many other very interesting things.