The Habaabi Khanjar/Jambia; FromThe Asir.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Good point ...I think my #18 of that reference indicates Asir... Abha... since the flower tribe weapons all have it. I am not so sure about the al Ahsa oasis. Frankly they are hugely difficult regions to penetrate...and what we have is by sheer hard plugging at it...

It occurs to me that the Flower tribe weapon is copied from the Royal Omani Khanjar whilst the Al Ahsa is copied from the Muscat Khanjar...which as you know led me quite a dance as the cornerstone Omani reference was entirely wrong in that regard... and the other reference so prestigious in all other respects was Omanisilver dot com is very badly wrong....and there are apparently other references which are incorrect.

Abha identity marks.
As well as the UUUUUUU (Which occasionally looks like OOOOOOO)The other marker decoration on the Abha is a floral decoration to the Quba and the flower motif on the reverse as well as an arabic inscription(maker/owner) either on the backplate above the belt or on the back of the Quba...(crown)There are many that appear to have criss coss wiring below the belt, however, to me the big give away is the highly angled scabbard turn.

I dont think enough examples exist from the al Ahsa Oasis quite yet to draw conclusions though I did stumble in and give it a shot...The major differences appear to be hilt related;more examples please...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

I think we need to express some caution here as Oman is NOT NECESSARILY the origin of all other Jambiya/Khanjar shapes or designs. The Yemeni and other Western Arabian areas spawned their own definitive designs and these can be seen described in several modern publications on the subject. These designs also have their own descriptive names depending on the areas of origin. Although the general shape is similar, it can not be IMHO, be firmly attributed to derive from Omani Khanjar types.
As a further matter of interest, the term "Habaabi" does not appear in any of these publications.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

I think we need to express some caution here as Oman is NOT NECESSARILY the origin of all other Jambiya/Khanjar shapes or designs. The Yemeni and other Western Arabian areas spawned their own definitive designs and these can be seen described in several modern publications on the subject. These designs also have their own descriptive names depending on the areas of origin. Although the general shape is similar, it can not be IMHO, be firmly attributed to derive from Omani Khanjar types.
As a further matter of interest, the term "Habaabi" does not appear in any of these publications.

Salaams Khanjar 1... Colloquial knicknames and regional folk lore often don't appear in official documentation especially in the case of a region that has been taken over by another state. Habaabi means of Abha... It is the traditional and local name also used in Oman for these weapons from the Abha region...Other traditional local nameology that isnt in the official list such as the one two and three grooved swords abu Falaj etc and local names for boiling honey...arabic is full of these lovely descriptive phrases....Several local names come in to play for the old guns and there is one called The One with the hump...A Martini Henry with a raised rear breach section.

The spread of the Omani Khanjar style ... Surely you are not suggesting that the regional variants from Asir and Al Hasa came from another region...and against all the trade link details I have outlined and the obvious style? A style so like the Omani Khanjar that the Prestigious author of Omani Silver and the extremely well versed people at Omani Silver dot com and others were hoodwinked??

Prove it.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Khanjar 1... Colloquial knicknames and regional folk lore often don't appear in official documentation especially in the case of a region that has been taken over by another state. Habaabi means of Abha... It is the traditional and local name also used in Oman for these weapons from the Abha region...Other traditional local nameology that isnt in the official list such as the one two and three grooved swords abu Falaj etc and local names for boiling honey...arabic is full of these lovely descriptive phrases....Several local names come in to play for the old guns and there is one called The One with the hump...A Martini Henry with a raised rear breach section.

The spread of the Omani Khanjar style ... Surely you are not suggesting that the regional variants from Asir and Al Hasa came from another region...and against all the trade link details I have outlined and the obvious style? A style so like the Omani Khanjar that the Prestigious author of Omani Silver and the extremely well versed people at Omani Silver dot com and others were hoodwinked??

Prove it.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

I have no intention of "proving" anything. All I am saying is that Jambiya from other areas NOT NECESSARILY originated in design from Oman.
Maybe this all happened in the opposite direction.................

Remember please that this is a DISCUSSION Forum, and I am discussing rather than stating unproven facts.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

I have no intention of "proving" anything. All I am saying is that Jambiya from other areas NOT NECESSARILY originated in design from Oman.
Maybe this all happened in the opposite direction.................

Remember please that this is a DISCUSSION Forum, and I am discussing rather than stating unproven facts.

Salaams Khanjar 1 ..This is indeed a discussion forum and as you know with ethnographics there is seldom a silver bullet. Often research is quite ground breaking and examples of misleading detail propogated down the decades appears and is cleaned up...sometimes no such research is available and we make of what we have, perhaps, so that some researcher in the futuure may observe these proceedings as new pieces of the jigsaw materialise...In this case more so... since both regions in the Asir and in al Hasa are veritable black holes and have been for many centuries.

I have as part of my research shown Forum the trade links of sea routed traffic Muscat Jazan Zanzibar inspired by Said Bin Sultan in the first half of the 19th C and in the timeframe(Hilt designed-1840/1850) when the Royal Saiyidiyah Khanjar was designed by one of his wives(Sheherazad) and the important hub position of Jazzan in the Asir and the region which was in Yemen but is now since about 1920 (though officially 1934) in KSA. The fact that this Khanjar is almost identical to the Saiyidiyah must be obvious...and knowing that the Muscat Khanjar was a 7 ringer must surely be clear..viz;

1.The 7 rings of the Sheherazad designed Sayidiyah were the influence of the Muscat Khanjar whilst the hilt was redesigned completely with Indian silver style design and a new shape..The same/similar silver styled hilt is seen on the same/similar 7 ringer in the Asir..e.g.on the flower tribe weapon.

2. The Muscat Khjanjar is a 7 ringer with a formal tee shaped hilt and is the contender for the al Hasa style having gone there by camel train... via Buraimi .


They are utterly different to other Saudia or more to the point for the Asir, Yemeni weapons and are obviously Omani styles.

If you think otherwise the ink is free here... You could do some research and try to prove otherwise?...I mean fairs fair...; I've done the research so if you reckon otherwise ...prove it.

I would be delighted to discus your reverse flow theory on Forum.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

I bow to your extensive research but I do wonder why you do not quote any sources......................

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

I bow to your extensive research but I do wonder why you do not quote any sources......................

Salaams Khanjar 1,
As I was explaining ...much of the research on ethnographic arms ~ especially in the difficult to reach arabian regions~is being done without a safety net and precious little supporting documentation of any great accuracy. I am as far away "technically" from the Asir and Al Hasa as you are...it is extremely difficult to visit..or believe me I would be there digging up the examples! So much utter nonsense is recorded... now that ought not to put off Forum research and it doesn't stop me..... Look at the discrepancies inserted into the records by Burton...and as you know once its documented its true...or it takes a lot of reversing...He had Moroccan and North African weapons slated as Zanzibari... !! I digress...but you see my point...

There often isn't a source! I use references some with completely spurious information...like the descriptions in www.Omanisilver.com where I noticed flowers engraved on the back of so called Omani Khanjars..It was your astute observation of the Khanjar in Omani silver by Ruth Hawley that is supposed to be Omani but is actually an Asir or al Hasa job (I'm still not certain). I use web site details all recorded ... I use Museums in Muscat and their huge double volume Richardson and Dorr...which is THE National Museum Doctrine and I know the form of Omani work so when something odd turns up I know its odd. I handle these weapons all the time so I get good at spotting discrepancies and in the case of swords I cracked all on my own the furious trade in rehilts ... which still continues unabated...in fact they sell more thesedays... I think if they stuck fake stickers on they would sell even more..

Just a last note on resources... I am absolutely certain that the best resource built up over the last few years is our own library which is now stacked with the latest doctrine and most updated discussion...even if it does get a little hot at times... thats the point about hot anvils ...They are hot.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Gentlemen, I would like to thank you for maintaining objectivity and composure as this complex discussion continues. As well noted, often discourse can become somewhat volatile as reactions to certain ideas and observations are presented, but what is important is to remain objective in any contesting and of course include as much proof or support as possible in rebuttal.

These discussions are far too important for personality issues, and personally I am more than impressed with the knowledge and perspective all of you have on these esoteric topics and which you impart here.

I must add that it seems well established that there are of course many older reflections, misperceptions and notations which have certainly given us a degree of distortion in developing useful material concerning these arms.
As well noted, particularly in 19th century as photography developed, the use of props, staging and other false impressions are notable hazards in our research.

Even in the woodcuts and other images representing these times and events, the artists license becomes a constant concern.

In my opinion I have always felt that slavers, in these cases as well as in Darfur in the Sudan, the drivers and bosses certainly would have used a bit of drama in their chosen accoutrements. I think of the kaskara types with full crocodile anatomy in their mounts, some I have seen with the hilt composed of entire foot as well as the scabbard entirely scaled hide. I met with the usual arguments that these were 'tourist' items, but my opinion remained firm as I found similar items in provenanced collections among other combative arms as well as personal discussions with an acquaintance who was a tribesman from Darfur. Naturally these do not comprise 'admissable' evidence, however they remain compelling.

In the case of the dancing swords themselves, I would submit that the concept of using actual combat swords in the form of ceremonial display here discussed as the Funun seems quite likely. Clearly much of this is tradition which developed out of martial hubris and eventually became a recognized celebration, and as well noted, the practice of sound in vibrating the sword blades would well dramatize the events. The 'sword dance' itself is well known in many cultures, I think of course of Scotland, but there are many others.
The field research shared here by Ibrahiim seems to reflect the instance where of course little actual documentation exists, though the standing tradition remains profoundly in place. To set hard and fast dates and regulation types of weapon to be used etc. would be it seems unlikely in these kinds of investigations, and I perceive most of what has been asserted here to in essence a 'working concept' to serve as a kind of guideline .

It seems fully conceivable that blades intended specifically for these events would have eventually been produced, and that actual weapons used in combat in early times or even later using arms mounted with the ever developing influx of trade blades, would have existed contemporarily.

As with most situations, especially in ad hoc circumstances, the use of these forms could certainly have interpolated. The planned or traditional events of course would likely have used the specifically produced weapons.
In more recent times, as the commercial aspects of weapons sales for collecting has advanced, and with the virtual opening of Oman to outside activity, naturally innovation has set aside any kind of adherence to such traditions and amalgamated the use of materials at hand.

It is well established that the trade blade phenomenon has monumentally complicated the study of ethnographic swords, developing conundrums which remain at best, speculative in attempting to find answers. Those of us who do engage tenaciously in attempting to do so regardless of the dangers of course feel profound frustration, anxiety and disappointment as regular emotions so adverse reactions are rather expected. However, we must remember we work here as a team, and one in my opinion the best in the business' as it were.

OK, off my soap box

As always,
Jim