rapier for comment

cornelistromp · 12th July 2014, 11:04 AM

the hilt with the saucer shaped guard and a small curl on the knuckle guard opposite the fore finger is of Norman type 93.
it can be dated about 1635-1660.
in art:
David Teniers II - a guard room scene, Six collection Amsterdam
Portrait Archduke Ferdinand Karl of Tyrol, KHM Viena inv. no 8023
real examples:
a similar hilt in the muse de l'armee, paris cat no J-264
cf Wallace no A677 with the rear quillon dividing into two branches. 1635-1640

best,

ulfberth · 12th July 2014, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

the hilt with the saucer shaped guard and a small curl on the knuckle guard opposite the fore finger is of Norman type 93.
it can be dated about 1635-1660.
in art:
David Teniers II - a guard room scene, Six collection Amsterdam
Portrait Archduke Ferdinand Karl of Tyrol, KHM Viena inv. no 8023
real examples:
a similar hilt in the muse de l'armee, paris cat no J-264
cf Wallace no A677 with the rear quillon dividing into two branches. 1635-1640

best,

Thanks Cornelis,

thats it right on the spot, should we conclude that is is therefore north italian of origine, or used troughout Europe...
( i'm cleaning a sinclair sword )

kind regards

Ulfberth

cornelistromp · 13th July 2014, 11:59 AM

At the first half of the 17th century, a radical change took place in the sword fencing style. The French school" escrime francaise" began to supplant the Italian and the Spanish fencing schools.

The main feature of this French school was smooth/loose manner of holding the sword with thumb and forefinger on each side of the the grip.
This manner of holding had great influence on the design of the hilt.
Since the focus of French fencing was merely on the thrust. the hilt was closed by a guard plate. (instead of a complex system of bars)
In order to make the sword more agile it became lighter in weight and shorter in blade length.
This eventually led to THE small word.

This development is attributed erroneously as a french development, however, Dutch paintings Rotius and Van der Hellst show an interest-rich phase in the development of the rapier to the small sword in 1648 and 1649. namely the transition rapier (The transition from rapier to small sword).
There is no historical evidence for this term transitional rapier.

It is not possible to allocate the origin of your transitional rapier, however,
it is not unlikely that your rapier is made in the low countries, Netherlands Belgium.

best,

ulfberth · 15th July 2014, 05:58 PM

Cornelis,

thank for the outstanding information on the history of this type of rapier !

Kind regards

Ulfberth

Dmitry · 15th July 2014, 06:58 PM

Nice job stabilizing the wire on the grip, and way too aggressive with the blade. I would have left the patina as is.
Just my $.02

Jim McDougall · 15th July 2014, 07:41 PM

Beautifully identified and described Jasper, as always!!!
Good points on terms such as noted, transitional rapier, and of course there are others I cannot think of off hand. Many of these kinds of terms have entered the arms and armour lexicon rather subtly via discussions and descriptions not necessarily widely published.

Another interesting point made is that developing production centers for arms of other regions may be the source for many variations or 'transitional' types of arms. As mentioned, the Low Countries and centers such as Liege; the emigration of Solingen makers, expansion of foreign influences and developing fashion and stylistic tendancies offer us not only challenges, but opportunities, to better understand these intriguing and often atypical forms.

12th July 2014, 11:04 AM	#1
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	the hilt with the saucer shaped guard and a small curl on the knuckle guard opposite the fore finger is of Norman type 93. it can be dated about 1635-1660. in art: David Teniers II - a guard room scene, Six collection Amsterdam Portrait Archduke Ferdinand Karl of Tyrol, KHM Viena inv. no 8023 real examples: a similar hilt in the muse de l'armee, paris cat no J-264 cf Wallace no A677 with the rear quillon dividing into two branches. 1635-1640 best, Attached Images Last edited by cornelistromp; 12th July 2014 at 11:17 AM.

13th July 2014, 11:59 AM	#3
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	At the first half of the 17th century, a radical change took place in the sword fencing style. The French school" escrime francaise" began to supplant the Italian and the Spanish fencing schools. The main feature of this French school was smooth/loose manner of holding the sword with thumb and forefinger on each side of the the grip. This manner of holding had great influence on the design of the hilt. Since the focus of French fencing was merely on the thrust. the hilt was closed by a guard plate. (instead of a complex system of bars) In order to make the sword more agile it became lighter in weight and shorter in blade length. This eventually led to THE small word. This development is attributed erroneously as a french development, however, Dutch paintings Rotius and Van der Hellst show an interest-rich phase in the development of the rapier to the small sword in 1648 and 1649. namely the transition rapier (The transition from rapier to small sword). There is no historical evidence for this term transitional rapier. It is not possible to allocate the origin of your transitional rapier, however, it is not unlikely that your rapier is made in the low countries, Netherlands Belgium. best,

15th July 2014, 05:58 PM	#4
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 412	Cornelis, thank for the outstanding information on the history of this type of rapier ! Kind regards Ulfberth

15th July 2014, 06:58 PM	#5
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Nice job stabilizing the wire on the grip, and way too aggressive with the blade. I would have left the patina as is. Just my $.02

15th July 2014, 07:41 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Beautifully identified and described Jasper, as always!!! Good points on terms such as noted, transitional rapier, and of course there are others I cannot think of off hand. Many of these kinds of terms have entered the arms and armour lexicon rather subtly via discussions and descriptions not necessarily widely published. Another interesting point made is that developing production centers for arms of other regions may be the source for many variations or 'transitional' types of arms. As mentioned, the Low Countries and centers such as Liege; the emigration of Solingen makers, expansion of foreign influences and developing fashion and stylistic tendancies offer us not only challenges, but opportunities, to better understand these intriguing and often atypical forms.