Old keris ?

Richard G · 9th July 2014, 11:39 AM

Thank you Henk, Rick and Alan,
No, Unfortunately there is no mendak. I have already given the blade a preliminary clean by soaking with Plusgas and rubbing down with crumpled aluminium foil. this has got rid of most of the surface rust but it is still present in the "pittings" which gives the blade a brownish tinge. I will try vinegar, lemon juice etc. and see what happens.
I also attach photo's showing the scabbard. I am not sure whether or not this is original, it is a very close fit but not perfect. And another showing some of the pitting on the blade.
Any idea as to age or origin?
Regards
Richard.

Henk · 9th July 2014, 02:58 PM

You're welcome, Richard.

Now that you show us the scabbard as well i think the keris is from Sumatra, Palembang. It certainly has some age. I strongly advise you use the cleaning Alan sugested.

Vinegar is a good option to soak it, but for more control i usually clean a blade with a slice of lemon or lime. That gives me more control on the cleaning process. But with te remains of gold on the gonjo i would be more careful as Alan said.

Sorry Alan for still using the term ganja in stead of gonjo. That's a dutch habbit just like we say Wrangka in stead of Wrongko. But i still do remember your wise lessons. But learning something new is easier than turning an old habbit into another one

KLUNGKLUNG · 9th July 2014, 06:20 PM

The sarong might be an indicator to determine the origin of the blade but in this particular case I have some doubts if Palembang is correct.
Similar sarong with the same sampir attached. This Palembang keris has a typical blade of the specific area.

A. G. Maisey · 9th July 2014, 11:36 PM

In my opinion it is a very great error to use the relatively easily identifiable origin of dress to influence an opinion relating to the origins of a blade.

Blades that originated in all regions can be found in dress from other regions. Numerous examples of this can be quoted.

In respect of the dress of this keris under discussion.

It could be Javanese.

Everybody is familiar with the keris dress associated with the kratons, but what the vast bulk of collectors do not recognise is the keris dress that comes from areas that were not under the direct influence of a kraton.

In a remote or village setting, a man would carve his own keris dress and the guiding influence would not be the form worn in the local kraton, but rather, the form worn by his father, and previous family members.

Remember this:- it was not until the Dutch opened up roads in Jawa that communication between the various regions of Jawa was facilitated.Before the road system was developed much of Jawa was covered with dense forest and the rivers were the highways. Anywhere not near a river might just as well have been on the moon --- well, so to speak.

Up until about 10 or 12 years ago there was a village not all that far from Karang Pandan, near Solo, where mature people lived who had never made the journey outside their village. Solo was about 2 hours away by bus --- after the one hour or so walk to the bus stop. There is a pretty good road to that village now, and except when the road washes out in the wet season, Solo is easily reachable.

It must be noted that very early Javanese wrongkos were almost exactly the same as the square form now associated with The Peninsula and Bugis styles.

To return to comment on this blade.

It is well known that Palembang keris form was influenced by Central Javanese keris form, and that South Sumatera in general was influenced by Jawa in general. But apart from influence there is also the fact that keris originating in Jawa made their way to South Sumatera one way or another.

Perhaps the best known example of this is Si Ginje.

I would suggest that to say precisely what classification applies to this blade, at this time, is a little premature. It should be stained before any defensible opinion is able to be given, and an opinion that cannot be defended is only a guess.

As for the dress, anything is possible.

A. G. Maisey · 9th July 2014, 11:58 PM

No problem with the spellings Henk.

Wrangka would still be pronounced wrongko. In fact, current correct formal spelling would be wrangka, and gonjo would be ganja. I usually use the phonetic spellings because most people reading these posts would not know how to correctly pronounce wrangka.

In fact, it is virtually impossible for somebody who has not been taught correct Javanese pronunciations to get them right from the printed word.

This "a" "o" thing has its roots in the change from hand writing to type writing to computers.

When hanacaraka (honocoroko) was romanised, words like gonjo and wrongko etc had the sound represented by an "a" with two little dots over it. The sound of this is definitely not "a", nor is it "o", its sort of like an "a" that is formed far back in the throat, and to the modern ear sounds like a phonetic "o". If I were a linguist I could explain this better, but I'm not.

In any case, how it is spelt doesn't matter, how it is pronounced does.

Wrangka = wrongko, ganja = gonjo

Re the use of brushed on lemon or lime juice for cleaning.

Yes, I agree that the use of this is an excellent method, and for a blade with a relatively smooth surface, and made from non-porous material, it is without question the premium method to use. It uses a lot of time, but it is the best.

However, for a blade that has pitting, or a blade that is made from porous material, a soak method of cleaning is required. The medium used for the soak could be coconut water, citric acid, vinegar, or any acidic medium. Some commercial blade cleaning in Jawa is done with very dilute hydrochloric acid.

For a long time I used pineapple juice, but in recent years that has not been my preferred medium, simply because good pineapple juice is no longer available.

Henk · 10th July 2014, 10:43 PM

Alan,

Thanks for your reaction. I do agree with you about the cleaning options. In exactly that way i choose my cleaning method. In the case of the ganja i would go for the careful method and rub gently with a slice lemon. Also the picking with a needle would be definitely an option.

For the spelling you're also completely right. The sound is neither a or o. I have some old dutch books that write ganja an wrangka with a small o above the a. Indicating what you just wrote.

A. G. Maisey · 10th July 2014, 11:19 PM

Henk, I would suggest that when we use lime or lemon to clean a blade, it is easier, neater, cleaner and in all ways preferable to use strained and filtered juice together with a small, stiff brush, than to use raw fruit rubbed onto the blade.

Lemon juice should not be used in combination with warangan for the stain, as the result is never correct.

The inside surface of lime skin used under running water, after the juice has been removed, can be rubbed onto a blade if the stain has become too dark, in order to lighten the colour.

Yes, I've seen the little "o" used above a Javanese "a". I think perhaps the two dots were introduced because of some printing or typing necessity. An "o" above the "a" is certainly more indicative of the required sound.

9th July 2014, 11:39 AM	#1
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 411	Thank you Henk, Rick and Alan, No, Unfortunately there is no mendak. I have already given the blade a preliminary clean by soaking with Plusgas and rubbing down with crumpled aluminium foil. this has got rid of most of the surface rust but it is still present in the "pittings" which gives the blade a brownish tinge. I will try vinegar, lemon juice etc. and see what happens. I also attach photo's showing the scabbard. I am not sure whether or not this is original, it is a very close fit but not perfect. And another showing some of the pitting on the blade. Any idea as to age or origin? Regards Richard. Attached Images

9th July 2014, 06:20 PM	#3
KLUNGKLUNG Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 24	The sarong might be an indicator to determine the origin of the blade but in this particular case I have some doubts if Palembang is correct. Similar sarong with the same sampir attached. This Palembang keris has a typical blade of the specific area. Attached Images

9th July 2014, 02:58 PM	#2
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	You're welcome, Richard. Now that you show us the scabbard as well i think the keris is from Sumatra, Palembang. It certainly has some age. I strongly advise you use the cleaning Alan sugested. Vinegar is a good option to soak it, but for more control i usually clean a blade with a slice of lemon or lime. That gives me more control on the cleaning process. But with te remains of gold on the gonjo i would be more careful as Alan said. Sorry Alan for still using the term ganja in stead of gonjo. That's a dutch habbit just like we say Wrangka in stead of Wrongko. But i still do remember your wise lessons. But learning something new is easier than turning an old habbit into another one

9th July 2014, 11:36 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	In my opinion it is a very great error to use the relatively easily identifiable origin of dress to influence an opinion relating to the origins of a blade. Blades that originated in all regions can be found in dress from other regions. Numerous examples of this can be quoted. In respect of the dress of this keris under discussion. It could be Javanese. Everybody is familiar with the keris dress associated with the kratons, but what the vast bulk of collectors do not recognise is the keris dress that comes from areas that were not under the direct influence of a kraton. In a remote or village setting, a man would carve his own keris dress and the guiding influence would not be the form worn in the local kraton, but rather, the form worn by his father, and previous family members. Remember this:- it was not until the Dutch opened up roads in Jawa that communication between the various regions of Jawa was facilitated.Before the road system was developed much of Jawa was covered with dense forest and the rivers were the highways. Anywhere not near a river might just as well have been on the moon --- well, so to speak. Up until about 10 or 12 years ago there was a village not all that far from Karang Pandan, near Solo, where mature people lived who had never made the journey outside their village. Solo was about 2 hours away by bus --- after the one hour or so walk to the bus stop. There is a pretty good road to that village now, and except when the road washes out in the wet season, Solo is easily reachable. It must be noted that very early Javanese wrongkos were almost exactly the same as the square form now associated with The Peninsula and Bugis styles. To return to comment on this blade. It is well known that Palembang keris form was influenced by Central Javanese keris form, and that South Sumatera in general was influenced by Jawa in general. But apart from influence there is also the fact that keris originating in Jawa made their way to South Sumatera one way or another. Perhaps the best known example of this is Si Ginje. I would suggest that to say precisely what classification applies to this blade, at this time, is a little premature. It should be stained before any defensible opinion is able to be given, and an opinion that cannot be defended is only a guess. As for the dress, anything is possible.

9th July 2014, 11:58 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	No problem with the spellings Henk. Wrangka would still be pronounced wrongko. In fact, current correct formal spelling would be wrangka, and gonjo would be ganja. I usually use the phonetic spellings because most people reading these posts would not know how to correctly pronounce wrangka. In fact, it is virtually impossible for somebody who has not been taught correct Javanese pronunciations to get them right from the printed word. This "a" "o" thing has its roots in the change from hand writing to type writing to computers. When hanacaraka (honocoroko) was romanised, words like gonjo and wrongko etc had the sound represented by an "a" with two little dots over it. The sound of this is definitely not "a", nor is it "o", its sort of like an "a" that is formed far back in the throat, and to the modern ear sounds like a phonetic "o". If I were a linguist I could explain this better, but I'm not. In any case, how it is spelt doesn't matter, how it is pronounced does. Wrangka = wrongko, ganja = gonjo Re the use of brushed on lemon or lime juice for cleaning. Yes, I agree that the use of this is an excellent method, and for a blade with a relatively smooth surface, and made from non-porous material, it is without question the premium method to use. It uses a lot of time, but it is the best. However, for a blade that has pitting, or a blade that is made from porous material, a soak method of cleaning is required. The medium used for the soak could be coconut water, citric acid, vinegar, or any acidic medium. Some commercial blade cleaning in Jawa is done with very dilute hydrochloric acid. For a long time I used pineapple juice, but in recent years that has not been my preferred medium, simply because good pineapple juice is no longer available.

10th July 2014, 10:43 PM	#6
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Alan, Thanks for your reaction. I do agree with you about the cleaning options. In exactly that way i choose my cleaning method. In the case of the ganja i would go for the careful method and rub gently with a slice lemon. Also the picking with a needle would be definitely an option. For the spelling you're also completely right. The sound is neither a or o. I have some old dutch books that write ganja an wrangka with a small o above the a. Indicating what you just wrote.

10th July 2014, 11:19 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Henk, I would suggest that when we use lime or lemon to clean a blade, it is easier, neater, cleaner and in all ways preferable to use strained and filtered juice together with a small, stiff brush, than to use raw fruit rubbed onto the blade. Lemon juice should not be used in combination with warangan for the stain, as the result is never correct. The inside surface of lime skin used under running water, after the juice has been removed, can be rubbed onto a blade if the stain has become too dark, in order to lighten the colour. Yes, I've seen the little "o" used above a Javanese "a". I think perhaps the two dots were introduced because of some printing or typing necessity. An "o" above the "a" is certainly more indicative of the required sound.