Old keris ?

Henk · 8th July 2014, 09:00 PM

A very lovely blade, with golden remains on the ganja. I would clean the rust with pineapple or lemmon juice. Lemmon juice is more agressive but is mostly used to clean a keris blade. Is a mendak present? I only see the ukiran.
Maybe Alan can tell more.

Rick · 8th July 2014, 11:58 PM

The ukiran looks like a variation on the 'woman' motif .

A. G. Maisey · 9th July 2014, 01:02 AM

Nice keris.

I can't see much rust on this blade.

Yes, if I was going to stain it, I'd clean it first, and that clean would be vinegar, simply because our pineapple juice these days is garbage.

However, the gonjo would not be cleaned with vinegar, pineapple juice, Coca-Cola, tomatoes nor any other sort of soak.

I would use a very bright light close up, along with a saddler's needle held in an awl and a 3X tool maker's loupe. I would very carefully remove all the corrosion manually. That gold may not get through a soak.

Richard G · 9th July 2014, 11:39 AM

Thank you Henk, Rick and Alan,
No, Unfortunately there is no mendak. I have already given the blade a preliminary clean by soaking with Plusgas and rubbing down with crumpled aluminium foil. this has got rid of most of the surface rust but it is still present in the "pittings" which gives the blade a brownish tinge. I will try vinegar, lemon juice etc. and see what happens.
I also attach photo's showing the scabbard. I am not sure whether or not this is original, it is a very close fit but not perfect. And another showing some of the pitting on the blade.
Any idea as to age or origin?
Regards
Richard.

Henk · 9th July 2014, 02:58 PM

You're welcome, Richard.

Now that you show us the scabbard as well i think the keris is from Sumatra, Palembang. It certainly has some age. I strongly advise you use the cleaning Alan sugested.

Vinegar is a good option to soak it, but for more control i usually clean a blade with a slice of lemon or lime. That gives me more control on the cleaning process. But with te remains of gold on the gonjo i would be more careful as Alan said.

Sorry Alan for still using the term ganja in stead of gonjo. That's a dutch habbit just like we say Wrangka in stead of Wrongko. But i still do remember your wise lessons. But learning something new is easier than turning an old habbit into another one

KLUNGKLUNG · 9th July 2014, 06:20 PM

The sarong might be an indicator to determine the origin of the blade but in this particular case I have some doubts if Palembang is correct.
Similar sarong with the same sampir attached. This Palembang keris has a typical blade of the specific area.

A. G. Maisey · 9th July 2014, 11:36 PM

In my opinion it is a very great error to use the relatively easily identifiable origin of dress to influence an opinion relating to the origins of a blade.

Blades that originated in all regions can be found in dress from other regions. Numerous examples of this can be quoted.

In respect of the dress of this keris under discussion.

It could be Javanese.

Everybody is familiar with the keris dress associated with the kratons, but what the vast bulk of collectors do not recognise is the keris dress that comes from areas that were not under the direct influence of a kraton.

In a remote or village setting, a man would carve his own keris dress and the guiding influence would not be the form worn in the local kraton, but rather, the form worn by his father, and previous family members.

Remember this:- it was not until the Dutch opened up roads in Jawa that communication between the various regions of Jawa was facilitated.Before the road system was developed much of Jawa was covered with dense forest and the rivers were the highways. Anywhere not near a river might just as well have been on the moon --- well, so to speak.

Up until about 10 or 12 years ago there was a village not all that far from Karang Pandan, near Solo, where mature people lived who had never made the journey outside their village. Solo was about 2 hours away by bus --- after the one hour or so walk to the bus stop. There is a pretty good road to that village now, and except when the road washes out in the wet season, Solo is easily reachable.

It must be noted that very early Javanese wrongkos were almost exactly the same as the square form now associated with The Peninsula and Bugis styles.

To return to comment on this blade.

It is well known that Palembang keris form was influenced by Central Javanese keris form, and that South Sumatera in general was influenced by Jawa in general. But apart from influence there is also the fact that keris originating in Jawa made their way to South Sumatera one way or another.

Perhaps the best known example of this is Si Ginje.

I would suggest that to say precisely what classification applies to this blade, at this time, is a little premature. It should be stained before any defensible opinion is able to be given, and an opinion that cannot be defended is only a guess.

As for the dress, anything is possible.

9th July 2014, 11:39 AM	#4
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 409	Thank you Henk, Rick and Alan, No, Unfortunately there is no mendak. I have already given the blade a preliminary clean by soaking with Plusgas and rubbing down with crumpled aluminium foil. this has got rid of most of the surface rust but it is still present in the "pittings" which gives the blade a brownish tinge. I will try vinegar, lemon juice etc. and see what happens. I also attach photo's showing the scabbard. I am not sure whether or not this is original, it is a very close fit but not perfect. And another showing some of the pitting on the blade. Any idea as to age or origin? Regards Richard. Attached Images

9th July 2014, 06:20 PM	#6
KLUNGKLUNG Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 24	The sarong might be an indicator to determine the origin of the blade but in this particular case I have some doubts if Palembang is correct. Similar sarong with the same sampir attached. This Palembang keris has a typical blade of the specific area. Attached Images

8th July 2014, 09:00 PM	#1
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	A very lovely blade, with golden remains on the ganja. I would clean the rust with pineapple or lemmon juice. Lemmon juice is more agressive but is mostly used to clean a keris blade. Is a mendak present? I only see the ukiran. Maybe Alan can tell more.

8th July 2014, 11:58 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	The ukiran looks like a variation on the 'woman' motif .

9th July 2014, 01:02 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Nice keris. I can't see much rust on this blade. Yes, if I was going to stain it, I'd clean it first, and that clean would be vinegar, simply because our pineapple juice these days is garbage. However, the gonjo would not be cleaned with vinegar, pineapple juice, Coca-Cola, tomatoes nor any other sort of soak. I would use a very bright light close up, along with a saddler's needle held in an awl and a 3X tool maker's loupe. I would very carefully remove all the corrosion manually. That gold may not get through a soak.

9th July 2014, 02:58 PM	#5
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	You're welcome, Richard. Now that you show us the scabbard as well i think the keris is from Sumatra, Palembang. It certainly has some age. I strongly advise you use the cleaning Alan sugested. Vinegar is a good option to soak it, but for more control i usually clean a blade with a slice of lemon or lime. That gives me more control on the cleaning process. But with te remains of gold on the gonjo i would be more careful as Alan said. Sorry Alan for still using the term ganja in stead of gonjo. That's a dutch habbit just like we say Wrangka in stead of Wrongko. But i still do remember your wise lessons. But learning something new is easier than turning an old habbit into another one

9th July 2014, 11:36 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	In my opinion it is a very great error to use the relatively easily identifiable origin of dress to influence an opinion relating to the origins of a blade. Blades that originated in all regions can be found in dress from other regions. Numerous examples of this can be quoted. In respect of the dress of this keris under discussion. It could be Javanese. Everybody is familiar with the keris dress associated with the kratons, but what the vast bulk of collectors do not recognise is the keris dress that comes from areas that were not under the direct influence of a kraton. In a remote or village setting, a man would carve his own keris dress and the guiding influence would not be the form worn in the local kraton, but rather, the form worn by his father, and previous family members. Remember this:- it was not until the Dutch opened up roads in Jawa that communication between the various regions of Jawa was facilitated.Before the road system was developed much of Jawa was covered with dense forest and the rivers were the highways. Anywhere not near a river might just as well have been on the moon --- well, so to speak. Up until about 10 or 12 years ago there was a village not all that far from Karang Pandan, near Solo, where mature people lived who had never made the journey outside their village. Solo was about 2 hours away by bus --- after the one hour or so walk to the bus stop. There is a pretty good road to that village now, and except when the road washes out in the wet season, Solo is easily reachable. It must be noted that very early Javanese wrongkos were almost exactly the same as the square form now associated with The Peninsula and Bugis styles. To return to comment on this blade. It is well known that Palembang keris form was influenced by Central Javanese keris form, and that South Sumatera in general was influenced by Jawa in general. But apart from influence there is also the fact that keris originating in Jawa made their way to South Sumatera one way or another. Perhaps the best known example of this is Si Ginje. I would suggest that to say precisely what classification applies to this blade, at this time, is a little premature. It should be stained before any defensible opinion is able to be given, and an opinion that cannot be defended is only a guess. As for the dress, anything is possible.