Maori Mere pounamu

kronckew · 5th July 2014, 07:41 AM

one of the advantages of living in the UK is that <s>looters</s>, er... explorers from GB have been bringing artifacts back here for centuries, and they pop up in estate sales at reasonable prices when the relatives sell of the dearly departed's prizes as junk.

i am keeping my eyes peeled for a full sized taiaha.

in the last decade or so, the russians, greeks, and chinese are also reclaiming their heritage and driving auction prices up. some do occasionally slip thru their nets.

the flood of 'antique' chinese jade and bronzes (bronze weapons in particular) on e-pray are all new, as china prohibits the export of any real antiques.

i tend to work under the assumption that if i can afford it, it's not a real 'antique'. with luck, i get some 'vintage' items. and some tourist crud. but the occasional gem too.

kahnjar1 · 5th July 2014, 12:33 PM

I agree. Most of the (then) colonial countries had their heritage "stolen". You are more likely to get genuine stuff where you are!.
Good luck with the Taiaha.

kronckew · 8th July 2014, 06:04 AM

the looting continues...

won this patu on e-pray from a USA Book-seller. the postage is costing me more than the club. 16 in. long x 4 in. at widest. (no lanyard hole, no carving other than the incised rings at the pommel) listed as 'vintage' polynesian, 'possibly maori'. looked 'possibly' enough for me to go for it.

kronckew · 8th July 2014, 10:06 PM

when it rains, it pours: found this one tonite, it's coming to stay with me. 18" (46cm.) x 6" wide (15cm.) listed as early to mid 20c. symmetrical both sides.

spiral · 10th July 2014, 07:38 PM

I could be wrong but perhaps the type/ colour of jade used has altered over time?

I have a old south sea islands jade axe , Its very dark green nearly black in some light.

Spiral

kronckew · 11th July 2014, 07:21 AM

i think it varies more by location the stone is found. the really dark green almost black with gold-ish flecks i hear is most prized. i also have read that the various maori tribes protect their sources. some stones are found on the beaches too.

i would expect that really high quality jade meres would be out of my price range

i'm lucky i could afford my one.

kahnjar1 · 11th July 2014, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

i think it varies more by location the stone is found. the really dark green almost black with gold-ish flecks i hear is most prized. i also have read that the various maori tribes protect their sources. some stones are found on the beaches too.

i would expect that really high quality jade meres would be out of my price range

i'm lucky i could afford my one.

As I have said before in this thread, the GOOD old examples in Museums here are generally dark green to almost black in colour.
The best greenstone is reputed to come from the West Coast of the South Island of New Zealand. Indeed the Maori name for the South Island is Te Wai Pounamu.
I agree that the source of the good stuff was kept secret in the past, but today the location is known, BUT one needs a Permit to gather greenstone, and that is jealously guarded. It is still found as large boulders in the rivers of the West Coast.

kronckew · 14th July 2014, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

...

i am keeping my eyes peeled for a full sized taiaha.
...

found it. 145 cm.

VANDOO · 14th July 2014, 03:26 PM

THERE ARE SEVERAL TYPES OF JADE COMING OUT OF NEW ZEALAND YOU CAN SEE EXAMPLES OF THE TYPES ON EBAY AND ONE SELLER USED TO LIST ALL THE TYPES AND THEIR DESCRIPTIONS. I AM NOT SURE WHAT TO CALL THE JADE USED ON YOUR MERE BUT THERE ARE SOME LIGHT COLORED JADES LIKE IT. MOST OLD MERE AND HEI TIKI ARE OF A DARKER GREEN JADE AND ARE SMOOTH AND POLISHED. THEY WERE MOST CHERISHED AND HANDLED A LOT AND FEEL VERY GOOD AND SMOOTH WITH VERY FEW MARKS FROM THEIR CONSTRUCTION TO BE SEEN OR FELT. THEY ARE WELL FORMED BUT MAY HAVE SOME VARIATIONS IN THICKNESS AND FLATNESS IN DIFFERENT AREAS.
I WOULD GO WITH THE APPROXIMATE AGE GIVEN ON YOUR EXAMPLE DUE TO THE TYPE OF JADE USED AND THE NUMBER OF LINES CARVED ON THE HANDLE.
A PICTURE OF A OLD HEI TIKI MADE OF THE SORT OF JADE USED ON MY OLD EXAMPLE MERE AND ON MOST OLDER MERE. THE JADE IS DARK GREEN WITH LIGHTER PATTERN WITHIN.

kronckew · 14th July 2014, 05:21 PM

thanks for your help, vanadoo. just went thru the tread on fijian clubs that had a post referring to older maori threads. quite informative.

in fact, it lead me to tim's post here

it looks like i have (post 9 above), not the original, but a darn good copy of the no. 48 in a. hamilton's book. i note a few minor variations in the patterns, on the grip area. and there is more apparent abalone shell inlayed eyes on the main tiki, 3 longitudinal bands, not 4. looked very hard to see any carving errors, border over runs, etc. didn't see any. oddly, the ends of the fibrous lanyard are sewn together along with the bits of feather.

very dark wood (NZ Tawa?). 43 cm. long, 15 cm. wide, 2 cm. thick, 312 gm.
teeny chip in edge shows wood fibres, same dark colour. bearing in mid the statements about plastic copies, i did the hot pin test. it's wood. i wiped it down with an oily rag (BLO) as there were a few dusty areas and it appeared a bit dry. it absorbed all the oil fairly quickly.

p.s. - found this jade manaia (bottom), thought it would hang nicely on the wall with the clubs when i display them.

kronckew · 19th July 2014, 12:47 PM

plain wood patu from post 8 arrived today. 16" (41cm.) x 4" (10.2cm.) as noted, deep dark brown hard wood (tawa?) with a smooth semigloss oil finish. heavy, 390 grams. quite a sharp striking edge. no lanyard hole (i added the temporary lanyard at the 4th incised pommel ring), no surface dings, no visible edge dings, but you can feel a couple teeny ones. don't think this is a tourista model. feels good & deadly in the hand.

ausjulius · 22nd July 2014, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

plain wood patu from post 8 arrived today. 16" (41cm.) x 4" (10.2cm.) as noted, deep dark brown hard wood (tawa?) with a smooth semigloss oil finish. heavy, 390 grams. quite a sharp striking edge. no lanyard hole (i added the temporary lanyard at the 4th incised pommel ring), no surface dings, no visible edge dings, but you can feel a couple teeny ones. don't think this is a tourista model. feels good & deadly in the hand.

about your club but
its for a recent made souvenir type of club,
the wood used, the shape, shape of the pommel ect. lack of lanyard hole all indicate very recent product and not of a traditional form.
ive made some clubs like that when i was younger as well.
i made a crude taiaha as well.

kronckew · 22nd July 2014, 02:47 PM

ah, well - didn't pay much for it. still feels like a 'user'. fairly heavy & sharp edges, would definitely hurt and damage someone.

the two 1960's +/- ones feel fairly good too (haven't posted pics of them yet). i've seen some for sale on NZ websites that are cheaper looking and selling for many times what i got those for. also have two that feel really touristy, one (first one i bought) is thin & poorly carved only one side tho it might make a good ping-pong paddle. the other is thicker, much heavier and fairly well carved and inlaid, but is only 12" long and has the initials TV on the grip. the intricately carved one billed as early 20c looks just like the one in the old book, though the patterns are slightly different. it's sharper too.

the lanyard hole in the jade one is flared without a sharp edge, not as polished as the rest but somewhat polished. no tool marks, the inner part of the hole is not shiny but not fresh cut either. can't see any tool marks. i'm not gonna bang it against anything hard to see if it cracks.

i've thumped it into my hand - that hurts.

sadly, i cannot afford the older 'real' antique ones i've seen in teeny pictures on antique dealers sites listed at ten times my most expensive one so far. you get what you pay for, but a good recent one is better than nothing. in the end, i will not be using them for their old pre contact, pre political correctness, purposes, just like the steel edged weapons i have of assorted ages. they are for dreaming. the age that these weapons evolved for is long gone and exists only in our minds and the history books.

the 'vintage' 16" tourist wahaika ones: top 2.
the small 12" wahaika TV
the thin 'modern' kotiate:

5th July 2014, 07:41 AM	#1
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,234	one of the advantages of living in the UK is that <s>looters</s>, er... explorers from GB have been bringing artifacts back here for centuries, and they pop up in estate sales at reasonable prices when the relatives sell of the dearly departed's prizes as junk. i am keeping my eyes peeled for a full sized taiaha. in the last decade or so, the russians, greeks, and chinese are also reclaiming their heritage and driving auction prices up. some do occasionally slip thru their nets. the flood of 'antique' chinese jade and bronzes (bronze weapons in particular) on e-pray are all new, as china prohibits the export of any real antiques. i tend to work under the assumption that if i can afford it, it's not a real 'antique'. with luck, i get some 'vintage' items. and some tourist crud. but the occasional gem too. Last edited by kronckew; 5th July 2014 at 07:58 AM.

8th July 2014, 06:04 AM	#3
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,234	the looting continues... won this patu on e-pray from a USA Book-seller. the postage is costing me more than the club. 16 in. long x 4 in. at widest. (no lanyard hole, no carving other than the incised rings at the pommel) listed as 'vintage' polynesian, 'possibly maori'. looked 'possibly' enough for me to go for it. Attached Images

8th July 2014, 10:06 PM	#4
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,234	when it rains, it pours: found this one tonite, it's coming to stay with me. 18" (46cm.) x 6" wide (15cm.) listed as early to mid 20c. symmetrical both sides. Attached Images

14th July 2014, 03:26 PM	#9
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THERE ARE SEVERAL TYPES OF JADE COMING OUT OF NEW ZEALAND YOU CAN SEE EXAMPLES OF THE TYPES ON EBAY AND ONE SELLER USED TO LIST ALL THE TYPES AND THEIR DESCRIPTIONS. I AM NOT SURE WHAT TO CALL THE JADE USED ON YOUR MERE BUT THERE ARE SOME LIGHT COLORED JADES LIKE IT. MOST OLD MERE AND HEI TIKI ARE OF A DARKER GREEN JADE AND ARE SMOOTH AND POLISHED. THEY WERE MOST CHERISHED AND HANDLED A LOT AND FEEL VERY GOOD AND SMOOTH WITH VERY FEW MARKS FROM THEIR CONSTRUCTION TO BE SEEN OR FELT. THEY ARE WELL FORMED BUT MAY HAVE SOME VARIATIONS IN THICKNESS AND FLATNESS IN DIFFERENT AREAS. I WOULD GO WITH THE APPROXIMATE AGE GIVEN ON YOUR EXAMPLE DUE TO THE TYPE OF JADE USED AND THE NUMBER OF LINES CARVED ON THE HANDLE. A PICTURE OF A OLD HEI TIKI MADE OF THE SORT OF JADE USED ON MY OLD EXAMPLE MERE AND ON MOST OLDER MERE. THE JADE IS DARK GREEN WITH LIGHTER PATTERN WITHIN. Attached Images Last edited by VANDOO; 14th July 2014 at 03:52 PM.

14th July 2014, 05:21 PM	#10
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,234	thanks for your help, vanadoo. just went thru the tread on fijian clubs that had a post referring to older maori threads. quite informative. in fact, it lead me to tim's post here it looks like i have (post 9 above), not the original, but a darn good copy of the no. 48 in a. hamilton's book. i note a few minor variations in the patterns, on the grip area. and there is more apparent abalone shell inlayed eyes on the main tiki, 3 longitudinal bands, not 4. looked very hard to see any carving errors, border over runs, etc. didn't see any. oddly, the ends of the fibrous lanyard are sewn together along with the bits of feather. very dark wood (NZ Tawa?). 43 cm. long, 15 cm. wide, 2 cm. thick, 312 gm. teeny chip in edge shows wood fibres, same dark colour. bearing in mid the statements about plastic copies, i did the hot pin test. it's wood. i wiped it down with an oily rag (BLO) as there were a few dusty areas and it appeared a bit dry. it absorbed all the oil fairly quickly. p.s. - found this jade manaia (bottom), thought it would hang nicely on the wall with the clubs when i display them. Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 15th July 2014 at 12:15 AM.

5th July 2014, 12:33 PM	#2
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,797	I agree. Most of the (then) colonial countries had their heritage "stolen". You are more likely to get genuine stuff where you are!. Good luck with the Taiaha.

10th July 2014, 07:38 PM	#5
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	I could be wrong but perhaps the type/ colour of jade used has altered over time? I have a old south sea islands jade axe , Its very dark green nearly black in some light. Spiral

11th July 2014, 07:21 AM	#6
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,234	i think it varies more by location the stone is found. the really dark green almost black with gold-ish flecks i hear is most prized. i also have read that the various maori tribes protect their sources. some stones are found on the beaches too. i would expect that really high quality jade meres would be out of my price range i'm lucky i could afford my one.

19th July 2014, 12:47 PM	#11
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,234	plain wood patu from post 8 arrived today. 16" (41cm.) x 4" (10.2cm.) as noted, deep dark brown hard wood (tawa?) with a smooth semigloss oil finish. heavy, 390 grams. quite a sharp striking edge. no lanyard hole (i added the temporary lanyard at the 4th incised pommel ring), no surface dings, no visible edge dings, but you can feel a couple teeny ones. don't think this is a tourista model. feels good & deadly in the hand. Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 19th July 2014 at 01:04 PM.

22nd July 2014, 02:47 PM	#13
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,234	ah, well - didn't pay much for it. still feels like a 'user'. fairly heavy & sharp edges, would definitely hurt and damage someone. the two 1960's +/- ones feel fairly good too (haven't posted pics of them yet). i've seen some for sale on NZ websites that are cheaper looking and selling for many times what i got those for. also have two that feel really touristy, one (first one i bought) is thin & poorly carved only one side tho it might make a good ping-pong paddle. the other is thicker, much heavier and fairly well carved and inlaid, but is only 12" long and has the initials TV on the grip. the intricately carved one billed as early 20c looks just like the one in the old book, though the patterns are slightly different. it's sharper too. the lanyard hole in the jade one is flared without a sharp edge, not as polished as the rest but somewhat polished. no tool marks, the inner part of the hole is not shiny but not fresh cut either. can't see any tool marks. i'm not gonna bang it against anything hard to see if it cracks. i've thumped it into my hand - that hurts. sadly, i cannot afford the older 'real' antique ones i've seen in teeny pictures on antique dealers sites listed at ten times my most expensive one so far. you get what you pay for, but a good recent one is better than nothing. in the end, i will not be using them for their old pre contact, pre political correctness, purposes, just like the steel edged weapons i have of assorted ages. they are for dreaming. the age that these weapons evolved for is long gone and exists only in our minds and the history books. the 'vintage' 16" tourist wahaika ones: top 2. the small 12" wahaika TV the thin 'modern' kotiate: Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 22nd July 2014 at 03:11 PM.