An arquebusiers powder flask of about 1540's

[Matchlock]

One more instance of the stylized trefoil decoration, found on another cranequin datable to ca. 1535, and in a Bavarian private collection:
engraved on the forward section of the ratched bar, and reduced to three dots struck to form a triangle.

This cranequin, too, is struck with the Nuremberg workshop mark of the 'Master of the crossed arrows'.


As stated above, the ornament on this item is a sample of the most simplified variant of a bunch of grapes, which seems to have originated as a stylistic decorative element in the late 15th or early 16th century - and primarily employed on all kinds ironworks including weapons and armor.


Have fun studying,
and best,
Michael Trömner

[Marcus den toom]

Hi Michl,

You are absolutly right, my mistake The thing is that i did read that thread about the arquebusiers flask when i first studied my flask, but forgot about it when i began to save and accumulate all the information regarding this thread.
I changed the title to a more accurate one.

Regarding the suspension i understand your explanation and the evidence but why would they hang there large flasks from cords as well? The hook would suffice and a cord would only get in the way when in the heat of battle you grab your flask and the cord gets tangled. But this is my inexperienced view on the matter

The picture of the powder/grains that fell out of my flask, are they enough evidence of actuall use of the flask?

Thank you as alwways my friend,

[Matchlock]

Hi Marcus,


Those little amorphous dark pieces may be just any kind of stuff.
As I said: no black on the finger - no traces of powder.
Remember black powder was not grained but fine meal powder (dust) in that period of time.

You may be interested to learn that the horizontal section of the iron base mount of your flask is very similar to that of the Ottheinrich flask dated 1552, so I would plead for assigning a date of 'ca. 1550' to it.

In the Von Morenberg sale of 13 Nov 2010, your flask was marked sold for 680 euro plus commission (Asta 41, lot 667, described as '17th c.') - see attachments.


Best,
Michl

[Matchlock]

The lower end of the belt hooks is heart shaped on both Ottheinrich's flask dated 1552 and Marcus's item, which can also be dated 'ca. 1550' (top 2 attachments).

A finely etched patron/box for 7 paper cartridges, sold at Christie's, London, 12 Dec 2006, lot 151, showed exactly the same general early outline directly deriving from the shape of the Gothic quivers for quarrels/crossbow bolts. It was decorated with a punched trefoil as well (4 att.) and the 1550's style of its etching accounts for the fact that it was made for a guardsman of the Electors of Saxony Moritz (1547-1553) and/or August (1553-1586) (3 attachments, the portraits by Lucas Cranach the Younger).

For comparison, a row of Saxon cartrigde boxes preserved at the Historisches Museum Dresden is attached, including a counterpart to the Christie's patron: lower row, second item from the right (2 b/w att.).


Best,
m

[Marcus den toom]

The belt hook design on my flask is the most recent oen so i consent to a date of 1550s until we find an even earlier flask or patron with the same design.

You will be happy to hear that last night i had enough courage to attempt to open the flask. The screws on the bottom where easily removed and i made a ton of pictures. I attached a few of them here, as well as my finger... blackish after swiping the inner surface of the flask

The bottom has as a wooden base plug, and the transversal screw is rustic but very much there in one piece. I am excited.


ps, this is not just a conversation between Michl and me, don't be afraid to join in.

[Matchlock]

Hi Marcus,


Whatever that darker substance on your finger may be - it does NOT look like black powder.
As soon as I can I will reopen one of the very few! of my 30+ flasks I remember actually containing remains of that special kind of finest ungrained black powder used 700 to 400 years ago - this still being the only proof of actual usage of any flask (apart from wondering whenever that may have been)!, and post an image of MY finger ...


Best,
Michl