Kattara restoration

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Sabah al-khair Ibrahiim,

Thank you very much.
i have seen these threats.
The object is stored elsewhere, I will check your request next week.
My questions are : is it an imported blade?
And should I use leather or metal wire to cover the hilt?

Best wishes,
Kubur

Salaams Kubur... I cannot say because I need to know the answer on flexibility first since a stiff blade will give a totally different answer. Omani flexible dancing blades, on the other hand, were made in Oman. I have seen cross hilted straight blades which are stiff and inflexible masquerading as dancing blades but which were imported via Yemen from Ethiopia, originally imported from Germany...and given the cross hilt treatment in Muscat for the tourist market...proliffic since 1970.

Thus the importance of the flexibility indicator question.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

I have seen cross hilted straight blades which are stiff and inflexible masquerading as dancing blades but which were imported via Yemen from Ethiopia, originally imported from Germany...and given the cross hilt treatment in Muscat for the tourist market...proliffic since 1970.

Thus the importance of the flexibility indicator question.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Don't take this statement as absolute though as the strong bladed types from antiquity exist and are not masquerading as dance swords, they are what they are, strong fighting swords.
But beware, there are rubbish types with poor looks and ugly handles seen in the tourist dens that carry old blades. it is important to be able to distinguish the types.

Gavin

Gavin

[spiral]

Yes indeed chaps, sometimes we need to remember our imagination or belief is not an information resource.

Spiral

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by spiral

Yes indeed chaps, sometimes we need to remember our imagination or belief is not an information resource.

Spiral

Can you show me where I have said that this is from my imagination please ?

Certainly it is what I believe ...through information from the National Museum, The Bayt al Falaj and the Bayt al Zubair museums...and of course the Richardson and Dorr Cultural foundation volumes etc plus of course my own observations here on the ground including exhaustive research and for about the last 4 decades collecting the items.

If you don't believe me come and see for yourself.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[spiral]

It was a reminder to everyone.. including myself.

If you have never done that... you've done well.

If you've done it but cant see it............

Spiral

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by spiral

Yes indeed chaps, sometimes we need to remember our imagination or belief is not an information resource.

Spiral

Very well put!! We have been down this exact track at least once before.........

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Just to remind members that this is Kuburs thread on a restoration note... Anyone wishing to take on the discussion over the Omani Sword form (The dancing sword)is more than welcome to do so ...but on the correct thread which is http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...ight=Omani+Sayf

Unless of course you would prefer to "imagine" rather than to "know" the facts; Obtuse remarks will not change the dancing sword into a fighting weapon no matter how many toys are thrown !

Bring it on...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Just to remind members that this is Kuburs thread on a restoration note... Anyone wishing to take on the discussion over the Omani Sword form (The dancing sword)is more than welcome to do so ...but on the correct thread which is http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...ight=Omani+Sayf

Unless of course you would prefer to "imagine" rather than to "know" the facts; Obtuse remarks will not change the dancing sword into a fighting weapon no matter how many toys are thrown !

Bring it on...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Please know you first wandered down the garden path about dances and such on the thread you now wish us to return to suddenly. I have just picked up the ball once it was kicked in this thread.

I do not want to draw on fiction and change one sword to another, I only want you to understand there are dance sword which you describe so well and there are swords with fighting blade of the same form being from antiquity, that is all.
It cannot be denied or passed off as bazaar rubbish for tourist if it does not conform to your beliefs. The knowledge of the fact that there are both types in existence should be shared with all.

I am happy to listen to your methods of leather and silver binding for the restoration, please proceed but without quantifying your sole beliefs about what the blade must be first before you do...it is the binding in question for the hilt form.

Gavin

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by SwordsAntiqueWeapons

Please know you first wandered down the garden path about dances and such on the thread you now wish us to return to suddenly. I have just picked up the ball once it was kicked in this thread.

I do not want to draw on fiction and change one sword to another, I only want you to understand there are dance sword which you describe so well and there are swords with fighting blade of the same form being from antiquity, that is all.
It cannot be denied or passed off as bazaar rubbish for tourist if it does not conform to your beliefs. The knowledge of the fact that there are both types in existence should be shared with all.

I am happy to listen to your methods of leather and silver binding for the restoration, please proceed but without quantifying your sole beliefs about what the blade must be first before you do...it is the binding in question for the hilt form.

Gavin

Salaams SwordsAntiqueWeapons, There are not two types in existence and never have been. The straight dancing sword or Sayf was invented for the current dynasty shortly after 1744 AD. It conforms to one specific styling that encompasses a flat spatulate blade with a round tip and sharp on both edges.(this is a deliberate reflection of the Sayf Yamaani Omani Battle Sword styling) The primary blade requirement is that it must be flexible..for vibrating the blade when dancing or salutations to the Ruler. The usual bend is easily through 90 degrees. The hilt must be conical...historically this comes from the curved Kattara weapon hilt worn by Omani slave masters.

Confusion and misunderstanding have tricked onlookers/visitors to Oman throughout history into imagining that the dancing sword must have been used in battle. It never was. It was carried by soldiers for ceremonial salutation and pageantry duties only.(Funun)

In fact it must be viewed as a dynastic ceremonial sword.
************************************************** *

Question ~So where does the sword which has a stiff apparent fighting blade for come from?

Answer ~ Ethiopia
~and having originally been made in Germany as a trade blade...Used in Ethiopia then exported via Yemen where the hilts which were usually Rhino were stripped off...and used for Jambia hilts... backyard rough hilts were placed ...and the weapons were sold in Sanaa etc...Many were transferred to Oman where since 1970 they have been sold as is ...complete with rough iron hilts or further rehilted in the Omani Style; some quite expertly so...and with welded hilt extensions plus the Omani Pommel and conical hilts and look every inch like a dancer except they aren't...but were sold through Muttrah Souk to non suspecting tourists worldwide. This is still being done.

(I estimate that since 1970 thousands of rehilts may have been thus produced.)

These are not Omani fighting blades but ironically they are probably Ethiopian fighting blades...simply the result of souk trade transfer and clever rehilting...Ethiopia.... Yemen ... Oman. Origin; Germany.

Thus the designation is Tourist Sword.

SEE #241 at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ttara+comments which shows a German made sword from Ethiopia having done the international souk transfer and finally having been given the Muttrah treatment before being re hilted with an Omani conical hilt plus silver work etc then sold to Tourists ..

I have given the thread originator the Forum site from which he can observe many different hilt decorative styles. Before proceeding with any other beneficial assistance I would prefer to know what is the blade... Omani or Ethiopian?... so that I may advise accordingly... and so that he may know the facts.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gavin Nugent]

Double post of the same Please delete my rolling eyes....

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Unless of course you would prefer to "imagine" rather than to "know" the facts; Obtuse remarks will not change the dancing sword into a fighting weapon no matter how many toys are thrown !

Bring it on...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

mmmm Obtuse...

As in" not quick or alert in perception, feeling, or intellect; not sensitive or observant; dull?"


& "bring it on" ok if that's your wish...

mmm that's realy funny coming from you , remember what you have learnt from my posts?. That you now proclaim to everyone... The Ethiopian connection etc. Re. The re. use for Jambiyas & numerous others things on the same subject, & the many references I published for you? That you know pronounce yourself as the authority upon....I suggest you have a look in the mirror before you step on your own dick again....

Its a terrible habit.

Spiral

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by spiral

mmmm Obtuse...

As in" not quick or alert in perception, feeling, or intellect; not sensitive or observant; dull?"


& "bring it on" ok if that's your wish...

mmm that's realy funny coming from you , remember what you have learnt from my posts?. That you now proclaim to everyone... The Ethiopian connection etc. Re. The re. use for Jambiyas & numerous others things on the same subject, & the many references I published for you? That you know pronounce yourself as the authority upon....I suggest you have a look in the mirror before you step on your own dick again....

Its a terrible habit.

Spiral

This post just bought you a 10 day suspension of your posting privileges.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by SwordsAntiqueWeapons

Don't take this statement as absolute though as the strong bladed types from antiquity exist and are not masquerading as dance swords, they are what they are, strong fighting swords.
But beware, there are rubbish types with poor looks and ugly handles seen in the tourist dens that carry old blades. it is important to be able to distinguish the types.

Gavin

Gavin

No they aren't. Omani flexi dance blades came about at the beginning of the current dynastic rule period somewhere around (just after ) 1744..and continuously until today.. They were and still are used in pageants and march past salutation and dance and are incorporated into the Funoon. See below;
1.For Funoon see http://www.octm-folk.gov.om/meng/introduction.asp
2.For details on The Omani Dancing Sword see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=Omani+Sayf

They were never used in battle as battle swords. Palace guards and Omani tribal soldiers did carry them... but only because it was one of their main duties... to raise a salute to the Sultan.

..not so unusual as you might think after all that is what happens in many armies today especially officers on parade who carry swords to conduct salutes with... especially in front of senior dignitaries and Royalty...

The Omani Battle Sword is different... The Sayf Yamaani... Library refers.

The bendy dancing sword has its "impersonators"... since there are some weapons of Red Sea providence which are very similar but which have been rehilted on Omani hilts but which are stiff...non flexible blades... These are from Ethiopian / German imports...often entering Oman via Yemeni traders and rehilted in Muscat.

The shop/workshops that carry out this work have vast supplies of varied quality blades some of which I would categorise as low value, however,some are original and excellent and have even found their way into important collections including museums; private and national.

With regard to the rehilts ~ They have been pumped onto the world stage in considerable quantities since about 1970 thus the peculiar appearance across the globe of apparently non flexible Omani Dancing Swords redesignated as fighting swords (which everyone here finds hilarious since they certainly werent used for that here)... but oddly may well be concoctions rehilted here... but which originally were actual battle blades from Ethiopia!!

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.