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18th June 2014, 09:18 AM
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#1 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
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Quote:
Salaams Kubur, This looks like an Abu Falaj...the one with the falaj...A dancing sword with one fuller ~ or channel ~ along its whole length. Before I go any further I also assume that you have seen the hilts etc. on Omani Saif...and Omani Kattara...below; 1.see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=omani+sayf 2. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=Omani+Kattara Usually (but not always ) these weapons  get the name tag of straight = Omani Sayf or Saif ... but when the blade is curved they are called Omani Kattara. The styling is often the same on both weapons regarding decoration to the hilt and scabbard. References above refer...and there is an especially beautiful hilt at #2 of reference 2.I have, however, one burning question... Does the blade bend quite easily and return immediately to straight from the tip ... bending through about 90 degrees ... Is the blade in other words ...quite flexible?  Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 18th June 2014 at 10:44 AM. |
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18th June 2014, 01:43 PM
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#2 |
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Member
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,145
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Sabah al-khair Ibrahiim,
Thank you very much. i have seen these threats. The object is stored elsewhere, I will check your request next week. My questions are : is it an imported blade? And should I use leather or metal wire to cover the hilt? Best wishes, Kubur |
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19th June 2014, 07:33 AM
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#3 | |
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Member
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Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
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Thus the importance of the flexibility indicator question. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
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19th June 2014, 09:18 PM
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#4 | |
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Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,818
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Quote:
But beware, there are rubbish types with poor looks and ugly handles seen in the tourist dens that carry old blades. it is important to be able to distinguish the types. Gavin Gavin |
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19th June 2014, 10:18 PM
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#5 |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,712
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Yes indeed chaps, sometimes we need to remember our imagination or belief is not an information resource.
 Spiral |
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20th June 2014, 08:07 AM
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#6 | |
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Member
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Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
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Quote:
Can you show me where I have said that this is from my imagination please ? Certainly it is what I believe ...through information from the National Museum, The Bayt al Falaj and the Bayt al Zubair museums...and of course the Richardson and Dorr Cultural foundation volumes etc plus of course my own observations here on the ground including exhaustive research and for about the last 4 decades collecting the items. If you don't believe me come and see for yourself. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 20th June 2014 at 09:13 AM. |
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20th June 2014, 02:34 PM
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#7 |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,712
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It was a reminder to everyone.. including myself.
If you have never done that... you've done well. If you've done it but cant see it............ Spiral |
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20th June 2014, 11:00 PM
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#8 | |
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Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND
Posts: 2,813
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21st June 2014, 10:12 AM
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#9 |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
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Just to remind members that this is Kuburs thread on a restoration note... Anyone wishing to take on the discussion over the Omani Sword form (The dancing sword)is more than welcome to do so ...but on the correct thread which is http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...ight=Omani+Sayf
Unless of course you would prefer to "imagine" rather than to "know" the facts; Obtuse remarks will not change the dancing sword into a fighting weapon no matter how many toys are thrown ! Bring it on... Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
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20th June 2014, 08:05 AM
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#10 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
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Quote:
1.For Funoon see http://www.octm-folk.gov.om/meng/introduction.asp 2.For details on The Omani Dancing Sword see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=Omani+Sayf They were never used in battle as battle swords. Palace guards and Omani tribal soldiers did carry them... but only because it was one of their main duties... to raise a salute to the Sultan. ..not so unusual as you might think after all that is what happens in many armies today especially officers on parade who carry swords to conduct salutes with... especially in front of senior dignitaries and Royalty... The Omani Battle Sword is different... The Sayf Yamaani... Library refers. The bendy dancing sword has its "impersonators"... since there are some weapons of Red Sea providence which are very similar but which have been rehilted on Omani hilts but which are stiff...non flexible blades... These are from Ethiopian / German imports...often entering Oman via Yemeni traders and rehilted in Muscat. The shop/workshops that carry out this work have vast supplies of varied quality blades some of which I would categorise as low value, however,some are original and excellent and have even found their way into important collections including museums; private and national. With regard to the rehilts ~ They have been pumped onto the world stage in considerable quantities since about 1970 thus the peculiar appearance across the globe of apparently non flexible Omani Dancing Swords redesignated as fighting swords (which everyone here finds hilarious since they certainly werent used for that here)... but oddly may well be concoctions rehilted here... but which originally were actual battle blades from Ethiopia!! Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 20th June 2014 at 09:11 AM. |
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22nd June 2014, 10:23 AM
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#11 | |
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Member
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Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
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Quote:
Salaams Kubur You may see that quite a storm errupts arround the controvertial Omani Dancing Sword. Although you may not be aware of it these swords change hands for reasonably large fees since many (if they are genuine) are held in families as heir looms...and the important ones seldom come up for sale. Library resource contains The Omani Kattara , The Omani Saif(or the Omani Dancing Sword) and Kattara for Comments. All of these have samples of decorative style. Your Questions .... 1. Is it an imported blade? To help you decide if this is an imported blade I request the blade bend test to measure flexibility. 2. To use wire or leather to cover the hilt. The designs at library references are clear and offer a variety of approaches. I would consider replacing the silver thumb and forefinger position silver ring or cuff...at the forefront of the hilt. This will enhance the look of the sword and return it to a hilt original look...and it will correctly lenghten the hilt by about 2 inches. You have the possibility of using leather as well...and or silver wire. You didn't mention a scabbard? The typical pattern to scabbard and often to hilt are the Omani Swirl patterns ... Quite a lot to consider... For me the important question revolves around the flexibility test...It looks like an old blade therefor please take the usual precautions for bending such a blade ...which I suggest should be done carefully and about 2 to 5 degrees at a time If the blade refuses to bend or does not return to straight immediately... stop! Otherwise it may snap... Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 22nd June 2014 at 10:36 AM. |
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22nd June 2014, 11:30 AM
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#12 |
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Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,818
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I do continue as the absoluteness of your statements and belief is incorrect and you wish to press this notion elsewhere other than the links you refer to.
My sword offer was replied with a flat NO with not the slightest bit of interest it looking at further options as your belief doesn't allow expansion. The sword shown here, its origin has been mentioned, my name is not Eric??? I have no problem with what I state about what I have held, surely that is obvious with the volumes of text in these pages.... you ask me to stay on subject but do not yourself, how is one to accept this request?  I know not what is missed with my statements?  It is simple; I am not taking anything away from your dance swords, dance with them, let them bend, this is your dance sword you passionately defend, present them any way you like.  There is another of the same type that does not bend... if these swords of the past were hung on hips, left by beds or used to travel to far away lands as was anyone's want. It does not need classification as your dance sword or to be reputed as souk rubbish...souk rubbish is very obvious and differences in types is obvious in the hand...it is not anyone else's fault....consider changing your absolute views on the subject Gavin |
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22nd June 2014, 05:25 PM
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#13 |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
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Who's Eric?
There is another of the same type that does not bend...
Gavin[/QUOTE] ************************************************** ********* Salaams SwordsAntiqueWeapons, It would be great if there was one (why would I deny it?)... however; No there isn't. Not counting the Omani Shamshiir which I put down to being a VIP Sword/dignatories only, there are 3 sword types designated Omani viz; 1. Omani Battle Sword.. or Sayf Yamaani. For Fighting. 2. Omani Curved Sword .. or Kattara. The slavers sword. 3. Omani Dancing Sword .. or Sayf (Saif). Pageants and Salutation only. The designation Omani Dancing Sword carries the description Conical Hilt, broad, flexible blade often fullered with 1, 2 or three grooves. A flat spatulate tip, rounded. Sharpened on both edges. The flexible blade easily bending through 90 degrees so that the sword can be vibrated whilst dancing. This action is carried out with the flick of the wrist and is vital to the swords duel function in the traditional march past and pageants or "Funun". A sword that looks like the dancing sword but is of Ethiopian/German origins and is stiff is considered as a Tourist sword sold in the souk to tourists since 1970...and occasionally fetching high prices apparently. Omani people don't buy them since as they dont bend they cannot be danced with thus are useless for the march past and Funun. Omani Dancing Swords are not fighting weapons. They never were. Think of them as Dynastic swords invented just after 1744 for Celebration and Pageantry...Salutation and Parades...for what is in fact the current Dynasty.. No matter how warlike you may consider them they were never used in war. There is no other derivative except the style that has been played with by the souk workshops for the Tourist market. Viz; German>Ethiopia>Yemen >Oman > Souk> World. Here is a picture of one such blade (stiff)...from the workshop that has been converting thousands of such blades since 1970...brought in from Sanaa... previously of Ethiopian ownership...a German Blade...they are not all tripple fullered ...this one happens to be SEE #241 on http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ttara+comments Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 22nd June 2014 at 05:51 PM. |
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23rd June 2014, 01:32 AM
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#14 | |
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Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,818
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Quote:
Yes my mind boggles at the denial and that your eyes are so closed. You defend a theory you consider 100% absolute with never a chance of a single individual in the past straying from this conviction of yours...  The souk items you speak of are not even a shadow of the old swords in the style we differ opinion on, the notion is void in when comparing these and old examples. By your reckoning, in 1744 onwards, a new hilted was just designed and everyone queued for the next 100 years to get one and not a single person re-hilted an old battle sword or an heirloom blade in this "newer" style hilt. Through divine intervention, they all kept their old battle swords at home and rushed off to the nearest market place to buy a new type of sword they can dance with because they all had pockets full of gold and a desire to "keep up with the Jones’s", this and sword makers were pumping these new swords out by the tens of thousands to appease the masses during this time....sounds like an economy stimulus package. By this reckoning, simply by these people then keeping these old straight battle swords with quillons, there should be so many available to collectors to sight, yet they remain elusive I would say 1 old for every 50 new would be generous....but hang on Hilda, they now, during this period of 1744 onwards, suddenly chose to use a curved sword with the dancing hilt for fighting, never a straight sword with this new hilt, gentlemen of the period just thought how cool it would be to forget all they learned with the old straight sword, a comfort and knowledge ingrained in to their very being to suddenly adopt a curved sword...but hang on again, NO, you'll tell me they all continued to use their old straight battle swords right up until the early 20th century based on one photo. We continue to venture through the lands of Dragons and Makara. Gavin |
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23rd June 2014, 09:34 AM
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#15 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
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Bill 'n Ben the flowerpot men.
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You have quite a weird imagination and view of how the dancing sword/ battle sword and kattara evolved in the process...It is likely that the honorific dynastic dancing item commenced at palace guard and militia levels and diffused into the relatively small city/town populations over the decades following the Dynastic start date of 1744... not overnight ! It took on the hilt of the slaver weapon..the kattara ...and was sharp and round tipped reflecting the old battle sword...The dancing sword was relatively easy and quick to make..Flexibility was its key component. Two main centres Nizwa and Muscat as well as lesser village smiths Sanau, Sohar, Salalah would have been in on the production as well as the wandering gypsy sword makers.There was no relationship the old Battle sword blades being cross hilted to produce a sort of dancer-battle blade...or a separate specific straight battle bladed sword on a conical hilt.. None. It is not in this countrys history. The only way this has crept into some peoples imaginations is because of the recent surge in Tourist rehilts as earlier described and since 1970. The Battle Sword was the fighting blade. The Dancing Sword was for Pageants and Salutation..being important and encapsulated in the Funun.. If there was this ghost blade that you imagine and have concocted because you have made a mistake in being sucked in by a Tourist item...do you not think had this been a fact that I would have spotted it? Do you not think there would be examples in the Richardson and Dorr volumes....or in any of the Omani Museums...? It's funny but perhaps they seem to have overlooked it. You have dreamed this one up. There is no such thing. Like the square boomerang? (I assume that your reference to Dragons and Makara is the out of context throw away addition added because you don't believe Kastane have hilts in that related form?...) Oh dear... Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 23rd June 2014 at 04:40 PM. |
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