Curious Kastane - Thoughts?

derek · 9th June 2014, 06:19 PM

Hi Spiral,
It may be hard to tell from the pics, but the scabbard is all hand work, with a good bit of detail, but not quite like the typical patterns in Sinhalese art. Its much more similar (to me) to metal work on presentation kukris.

The metal (handle, quillons, head) is not heavy or rough, not flat either. The head on the pommel is nicely rounded with a lot of polish.

I'm doubting Chinese repro, but repro of some sort is my suspicion. If its Chinese they have seriously upped their game. Right now I'm guessing Indian due to the scabbard, and probably not for a modern tourist market. Maybe several decades (or more) back?

derek · 9th June 2014, 07:20 PM

I noticed that the photos give it a brass hue. Its more silver alloy with what may have been a gold wash at some point that has worn off a lot.
The bottom of the scabbard was left silver by design in the smooth area, exactly like an old kukri scabbard I once owned. I wish I could find a pic....

spiral · 9th June 2014, 07:47 PM

Hi Derek,

My reference to the heads was more to the lower guard/upper scabbard ones.

I could be wrong & hope I am but for the last 5 years at least many original ethnographic pieces have been bought & shipped into China.

Sadly yes they have upped their game.. just as they have in every other manufacturing industry.

I should say Ive never owned a Kastane, {real or not.} Im just saying how it appears to me.

The work doesn't accurately resemble any presentation kukri I can think of, but the flower design & tendrils does look like some lotus,rhodenron & tendril seen on some kukri... but Id say not truly the same.

Hopefully either way someone knows exactly what this is.

Is the blade distally tapered or same diameter till near the tip?

Spiral

derek · 9th June 2014, 08:48 PM

Very little taper to the blade, but blades from Ceylon can be strange animals.

Yes, you hit on the lotus and tendrils. I had a nice little kukri with a very similar theme on the bottom and it had the lions at the top. Same metals, silver alloy and brass. Gotta find that picture!

The animal on the pommel (lion, dragon, mythical water creature, whatever) is silver alloy with a fading gold wash. Its very polished.

I frequently troll the knives coming from China, especially on Ali express, and I guess I am doubtful they would tackle something so relatively obscure and put so much detail into it. This wouldn't be a mass produced item. There would be no money in it....unless someone tried to pass it off for a few thousand bucks. Hmmm.

spiral · 9th June 2014, 10:27 PM

mmm We will have to wait for others with experience I guess.

I think its almost a fantasy fake, {A dragon sword.} & if they make 100 for $20 each & they sell for a $100 each I would guess theve had a good result.

But Alex, Ariel, Charles, Artzi RS etc can comment on there perceptions of it & knowledge.

Truly hope I'm wrong & its some super rare valuable specimen.

spiral

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 10th June 2014, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by derek

Very little taper to the blade, but blades from Ceylon can be strange animals.

Yes, you hit on the lotus and tendrils. I had a nice little kukri with a very similar theme on the bottom and it had the lions at the top. Same metals, silver alloy and brass. Gotta find that picture!

The animal on the pommel (lion, dragon, mythical water creature, whatever) is silver alloy with a fading gold wash. Its very polished.

I frequently troll the knives coming from China, especially on Ali express, and I guess I am doubtful they would tackle something so relatively obscure and put so much detail into it. This wouldn't be a mass produced item. There would be no money in it....unless someone tried to pass it off for a few thousand bucks. Hmmm.

Salaams Derek... I have to say the item is a copy... but may be either from Sri Lanka or India as a tourist sword.. It looks too worn/polished to be recent Chinese...but it could be... For sure then~ its not a real Kastane ... but it could be a belly dancer item. Often, however,they have inverted blades...to more easily balance on top of the performers head! ~ used in Belly Dancing in North Africa...Morocco etc...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

CharlesS · 10th June 2014, 08:02 PM

To my eye the blade looks pretty badly produced...but actually many outstanding kastanes have very poor blades as these types are "to be seen" status pieces.

The more troubling thing is the 'silver' work which, again, to my eye looks "pressed" or molded, perhaps even cast and then finished. Some tourist items of this type, that is, with pressed or molded alloy metal, can be seen coming out of Indonesia.

I would not dare to speculate too much on this piece without actually having it in hand, but from what I can see, I agree with the conclusion that it may be some sort or mass produced tourist mock-up of a kastane. Like so many things of that type, they can look darn good from a distance!

spiral · 10th June 2014, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

It looks too worn/polished to be recent Chinese...but it could be...

Its amazing what a machine buffer will wear away & polish....

.

Could be Indian but looks to my eye to be made by someone, just copying something they had no conception off. Looks Chinese to my eye, but I think the Indian would do it better... But I could be wrong.

I seem to recall Gavin had valuable input on the Kastane? & has seem many fakes in the auctions he peruses as well.

Hopefully he will look in.

Spiral

derek · 11th June 2014, 02:30 PM

Well,
I decided to go back to the seller and ask him for more details about this thing. Turns out it was part of a lot that was sold for a widow who brought it back from Sri Lanka with her husband some years ago. Apparently they had some difficulty getting their purchases shipped back at that time.

So, I have seen a piha that I was pretty certain was a later reproduction. By that I mean produced sometime after 1815 and the disbanding of the Royal Workshops. If the information is accurate, this would be the first kastane that I would call a later tourist repro from Sri Lanka, but it is true enough to the originals in form and detail that I could believe it.

The pics aren't doing it justice. It's a pretty little wall hanger.

9th June 2014, 06:19 PM	#1
derek Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 215	Hi Spiral, It may be hard to tell from the pics, but the scabbard is all hand work, with a good bit of detail, but not quite like the typical patterns in Sinhalese art. Its much more similar (to me) to metal work on presentation kukris. The metal (handle, quillons, head) is not heavy or rough, not flat either. The head on the pommel is nicely rounded with a lot of polish. I'm doubting Chinese repro, but repro of some sort is my suspicion. If its Chinese they have seriously upped their game. Right now I'm guessing Indian due to the scabbard, and probably not for a modern tourist market. Maybe several decades (or more) back?

9th June 2014, 07:20 PM	#2
derek Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 215	I noticed that the photos give it a brass hue. Its more silver alloy with what may have been a gold wash at some point that has worn off a lot. The bottom of the scabbard was left silver by design in the smooth area, exactly like an old kukri scabbard I once owned. I wish I could find a pic....

9th June 2014, 07:47 PM	#3
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Hi Derek, My reference to the heads was more to the lower guard/upper scabbard ones. I could be wrong & hope I am but for the last 5 years at least many original ethnographic pieces have been bought & shipped into China. Sadly yes they have upped their game.. just as they have in every other manufacturing industry. I should say Ive never owned a Kastane, {real or not.} Im just saying how it appears to me. The work doesn't accurately resemble any presentation kukri I can think of, but the flower design & tendrils does look like some lotus,rhodenron & tendril seen on some kukri... but Id say not truly the same. Hopefully either way someone knows exactly what this is. Is the blade distally tapered or same diameter till near the tip? Spiral

9th June 2014, 08:48 PM	#4
derek Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 215	Very little taper to the blade, but blades from Ceylon can be strange animals. Yes, you hit on the lotus and tendrils. I had a nice little kukri with a very similar theme on the bottom and it had the lions at the top. Same metals, silver alloy and brass. Gotta find that picture! The animal on the pommel (lion, dragon, mythical water creature, whatever) is silver alloy with a fading gold wash. Its very polished. I frequently troll the knives coming from China, especially on Ali express, and I guess I am doubtful they would tackle something so relatively obscure and put so much detail into it. This wouldn't be a mass produced item. There would be no money in it....unless someone tried to pass it off for a few thousand bucks. Hmmm.

9th June 2014, 10:27 PM	#5
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	mmm We will have to wait for others with experience I guess. I think its almost a fantasy fake, {A dragon sword.} & if they make 100 for $20 each & they sell for a $100 each I would guess theve had a good result. But Alex, Ariel, Charles, Artzi RS etc can comment on there perceptions of it & knowledge. Truly hope I'm wrong & its some super rare valuable specimen. spiral

10th June 2014, 08:02 PM	#7
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	To my eye the blade looks pretty badly produced...but actually many outstanding kastanes have very poor blades as these types are "to be seen" status pieces. The more troubling thing is the 'silver' work which, again, to my eye looks "pressed" or molded, perhaps even cast and then finished. Some tourist items of this type, that is, with pressed or molded alloy metal, can be seen coming out of Indonesia. I would not dare to speculate too much on this piece without actually having it in hand, but from what I can see, I agree with the conclusion that it may be some sort or mass produced tourist mock-up of a kastane. Like so many things of that type, they can look darn good from a distance!

11th June 2014, 02:30 PM	#9
derek Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 215	Well, I decided to go back to the seller and ask him for more details about this thing. Turns out it was part of a lot that was sold for a widow who brought it back from Sri Lanka with her husband some years ago. Apparently they had some difficulty getting their purchases shipped back at that time. So, I have seen a piha that I was pretty certain was a later reproduction. By that I mean produced sometime after 1815 and the disbanding of the Royal Workshops. If the information is accurate, this would be the first kastane that I would call a later tourist repro from Sri Lanka, but it is true enough to the originals in form and detail that I could believe it. The pics aren't doing it justice. It's a pretty little wall hanger.