A cup hilt sword for coments.

dana_w · 7th June 2014, 06:37 PM

That is a good question Fernando. Maybe you could help me with a list that would exclude the possibility of a possible Colonial Cup Hilt being Portuguese.

I noticed that the cup on your has rivets, but not mounting hardware attached.

fernando · 8th June 2014, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dana_w

That is a good question Fernando. Maybe you could help me with a list that would exclude the possibility of a possible Colonial Cup Hilt being Portuguese.

I noticed that the cup on your has rivets, but not mounting hardware attached.

I don't have the luggage to list details to differentiate cuphilts from being Spanish, Portuguese or Colonial, Dana. I play a bit by ear. One thing i learned is that Portuguese and Spanish are often so alike that the name convenientely given by connoisseurs is Penisular ... which is not surprising, due to, during a large period in which these swords were in fashion, Portugal was under Spanish control; also neighbourhood cultural convergence and all that.
The only solid difference that i have learned is, when present, the weklding of the quillons to the bowl instead of the internal securing arms, normaly fixed by screws. Another alternative,also when present, is the mark of the smith or the language in which the eventual inscriptions in the blade are printed ... but even this is passive of failure, as swords could be made in one country (Spain) with inscriptions in the others language, either by clients demand or just for fashion.
Concerning Colonial variants, i guess they are often more 'folkloric', made and decorated in a non sophisticated or rustic manner. But as i say, i am playing by ear and basicaly depend on the seller's assumptions ... when they appear to make sense to me.
The silver rivets in mine are not for fixing the bowl but only for show off, like the trimmings in the grip.

dana_w · 9th June 2014, 04:01 PM

I am waiting on “Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America 1700-1821” before venturing to deeply into this topic, but here is what we have so far?

(A) More roughly made & less decorative
(B) More rugged arming swords rather than slender rapiers
(C) More likely to have natural grips made of horn or wood (crisscross patterning?, bulging?)
(D) More likely to have a "mushroom-shaped" pommel
(E) Typically the cup is welded to the quillons rather than mounted with internal securing arms, that are normally fixed by screws (This is also typical of Portuguese Cup Hilts)
(F) Typically missing the guardopolvo (dust guard?) where the blade penetrate through the cup

Attached are photos of a "Spanish Colonial" Cup Hilt with a "mushroom-shaped" pommel. Note that the cup is welded to the quillons via arms on the lip of the cup.

These photos are copyright (c) 2014 by Dana K. Williams. All Rights Are Reserved.

M ELEY · 11th June 2014, 04:30 AM

www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17232

Just wanted to post this to show the mushroom-style pommel, welded bars of the guard and horn checkered grips. Examples of the 4-sided checkering of grip material can be seen in Peterson's book as well as in Brinkerhoff's.

dana_w · 12th June 2014, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17232

Just wanted to post this to show the mushroom-style pommel, welded bars of the guard and horn checkered grips. Examples of the 4-sided checkering of grip material can be seen in Peterson's book as well as in Brinkerhoff's.

Thanks for pointing me at your legacy post. Nice Cup Hilt! And a good example of the grip you were talking about.

dana_w · 12th June 2014, 06:58 PM

Yea! My copy of “Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America 1700-1821” , has arrived.

I would like to publicly thank the person who sent me this wonderful book, my GOOD FRIEND Miqueleter, who I met here on the forum.

Miqueleter also included some other goodies, one of which I have posted here:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...44&postcount=1

M ELEY · 13th June 2014, 12:15 AM

WOW! I want to be friends with Miqueleter!! I love shipwreck pieces, as they define a moment captured in time and usually under terrible (but historic) circumstances. Very nice piece!

BTW, anyone out there happen to have a copy of "Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America"? I have a xerox copy of that hard-to-find manual given me by an exceptional gentleman (thanks, Jim McD!!), but would like the book.

9th June 2014, 04:01 PM	#3
dana_w Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Southeast Florida, USA Posts: 436	I am waiting on “Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America 1700-1821” before venturing to deeply into this topic, but here is what we have so far? (A) More roughly made & less decorative (B) More rugged arming swords rather than slender rapiers (C) More likely to have natural grips made of horn or wood (crisscross patterning?, bulging?) (D) More likely to have a "mushroom-shaped" pommel (E) Typically the cup is welded to the quillons rather than mounted with internal securing arms, that are normally fixed by screws (This is also typical of Portuguese Cup Hilts) (F) Typically missing the guardopolvo (dust guard?) where the blade penetrate through the cup Attached are photos of a "Spanish Colonial" Cup Hilt with a "mushroom-shaped" pommel. Note that the cup is welded to the quillons via arms on the lip of the cup. These photos are copyright (c) 2014 by Dana K. Williams. All Rights Are Reserved. Attached Images

11th June 2014, 04:30 AM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,196	My Caribbean cuphilt www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17232 Just wanted to post this to show the mushroom-style pommel, welded bars of the guard and horn checkered grips. Examples of the 4-sided checkering of grip material can be seen in Peterson's book as well as in Brinkerhoff's.

7th June 2014, 06:37 PM	#1
dana_w Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Southeast Florida, USA Posts: 436	That is a good question Fernando. Maybe you could help me with a list that would exclude the possibility of a possible Colonial Cup Hilt being Portuguese. I noticed that the cup on your has rivets, but not mounting hardware attached.

12th June 2014, 06:58 PM	#6
dana_w Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Southeast Florida, USA Posts: 436	Yea! My copy of “Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America 1700-1821” , has arrived. I would like to publicly thank the person who sent me this wonderful book, my GOOD FRIEND Miqueleter, who I met here on the forum. Miqueleter also included some other goodies, one of which I have posted here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...44&postcount=1

13th June 2014, 12:15 AM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,196	WOW! I want to be friends with Miqueleter!! I love shipwreck pieces, as they define a moment captured in time and usually under terrible (but historic) circumstances. Very nice piece! BTW, anyone out there happen to have a copy of "Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America"? I have a xerox copy of that hard-to-find manual given me by an exceptional gentleman (thanks, Jim McD!!), but would like the book.