On the Origins of the so-called Berber Sabres

[Jim McDougall]

Excellent Teodor, thank you!!!!
It is so great when these older threads are brought up with new data, and finally we can put this one to rest. I agree the Museo del Ejercito has as far as I have known always had well placed research, and it seems that the Caribbean attribution to these has also been consistant.

Sounds like a fantastic trip, and thank you again for sharing this.

All the best,
Jim

[archer]

I just noticed a mention on the third page of Faganarms,Inc. Spring 2014 catalog a Berber Back sword listed with the mention that the Kabyle Berbers fought for the French in Mexico in the 1850s. Perhaps, this is partially how and why they were connected. Steve

[Masich]

Here are two more examples of probable Spanish Colonial swords with notched horn grips and "shell" guards. One appears to be a horseman's saber with a curved, full length blade bearing the familiar "No me saques sin razon" inscription and panoply with floral flourish. The other has a heavier, shorter more cutlass-like blade.
The shell guards should, it seems to me, really be classified as a Peacock motif. The uniqueness of this design, when combined with the distinctive notched grip, may well be a clue to the origin of these swords.
Pierce Chamberlain told me the "No me saques..." sword pictured here is likely from Mexico but agreed that it exhibits Caribbean influence--but that, of course, covers a pretty broad area.The Brazilian connection (attributed to the peacock motif guard on the previously-posted sword seen on the gray background) is intriguing. Has anyone discovered more attributed specimens of this style? Are there any additional theories on the provenance of these enigmatic pieces?

Andy Masich

[ariel]

Never thought to see this thread resurrected :-)))

Jut as an afterthought to my remark from 2013(!!!), see post #53: blades do travel.

Here is my nimcha ( or saif for the purists), typical North African work, but the blade is marked "Nueva Granada 1845". Nueva Granada is, AFAIK, Colombia/Panama these days:-)

Was the blade made there and transported to Spanish Sahara?

[carlos]

I only want to help in this post with 3 pictures from spanish army museum in Toledo.
Thanks
Carlos

[Ian]

I have been a silent observer of this thread for a long time. But it seems that Carlos' post lays to rest, definitively, the Spanish colonial origins of these swords, with their first appearance in Central America and later transposition to western Africa. This has all been said before in other posts here, but Carlos' finding of an excellent exemplar in the Toledo museum seems to be the icing on the cake.

Unlike the notorious "Shaver Cool" thread which went on forever, this one seems to have reached a clear and unambiguous conclusion. The use of British M1796 light cavalry saber blades on some of these is an interesting finding, and may reflect a surplus supply of these that was repurposed for the Spanish colonies. A Prussian version of the same sword ("Blucher-sabel"--Prussian cavalry M1811) might have been the source for some of these when that model was superseded in 1858.*

Ian.

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Reference

* Deller R and Binck J. The Prussian Model 1811 Cavalry Sabre (or "Blücher Sabre"). Classic Arms and Militaria, vol. 8, no. 4, July/August 2001. Accessible online here

[TVV]

Carlos,

Thank you for posting a much better picture of the Toledo sword than what I was able to do a couple of years ago in post 56 of this thread. It may take some time, but I hope eventually these swords will start to be properly attributed to the Caribbean and not to the Maghreb.

Teodor

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Masich

Here are two more examples of probable Spanish Colonial swords with notched horn grips and "shell" guards. One appears to be a horseman's saber with a curved, full length blade bearing the familiar "No me saques sin razon" inscription and panoply with floral flourish. The other has a heavier, shorter more cutlass-like blade.
The shell guards should, it seems to me, really be classified as a Peacock motif. The uniqueness of this design, when combined with the distinctive notched grip, may well be a clue to the origin of these swords.
Pierce Chamberlain told me the "No me saques..." sword pictured here is likely from Mexico but agreed that it exhibits Caribbean influence--but that, of course, covers a pretty broad area.The Brazilian connection (attributed to the peacock motif guard on the previously-posted sword seen on the gray background) is intriguing. Has anyone discovered more attributed specimens of this style? Are there any additional theories on the provenance of these enigmatic pieces?

Andy Masich

Andy, when did you talk with Pierce??

[Masich]

I last spoke to Pierce about a month ago. He and Sid Brinckerhoff hired me as a curator at the Arizona Historical Society more than 30 years ago. Though I've moved far from the Southwest, I still love Spanish colonial and Mexican history.
I am eager to learn more about these distinctive "Brazilian" swords, though I agree with you that this attribution may be too restrictive for a form that may be more appropriately called Caribbean.
Any further thoughts on the Peacock connection?

Andy Masich

[machinist]

Perhaps it may be based on an Ocellated Turkey native to the Yucatan region rather than a Peacock, the eyes on the feather seem similar to the decorations of the shell guard.

[Masich]

Originally Posted by machinist

Perhaps it may be based on an Ocellated Turkey native to the Yucatan region rather than a Peacock, the eyes on the feather seem similar to the decorations of the shell guard.

This is a brilliant supposition! Surely you are correct--the guards all have two rows of "eyes" neatly arranged within the fan-like striations. Others, including me, who saw peacocks were all "fowled up." I'm going to start looking at Yucatan native and folk traditions.
Andy Masich
PS It makes me wonder if any of these guards may have been painted when new--can you imagine staring down a blade with all those eyes looking back at you?
PPS These turkeys in my backyard inspired me to write the peacock post in this thread in the first place--I didn't realize that these birds (or their Yucatan cousins) might have actually been the original inspiration for these sword guards.

[Masich]

Originally Posted by machinist

Perhaps it may be based on an Ocellated Turkey native to the Yucatan region rather than a Peacock, the eyes on the feather seem similar to the decorations of the shell guard.

I may be going off half "cocked" on a wild turkey chase, but if this hypothesis is correct, it could be historically significant. The ocellated turkey lives only in a 130,000 km2 (50,000 sq mi) range in the Yucatán Peninsula in Mexico—which includes all or part the states of Quintana Roo, Campeche, Yucatán, Tabasco, and Chiapas—as well as the northern parts of Belize and Guatemala. This may have been the point of origin for this guard design. The grip my have North African roots with a Spanish connection to the New World. It's also still possible that the Portuguese brought the form with captive Africans to Brazil and the general sword form may have spread from there northward to Central America, where the shell guard morphed into the turkey form seen on the guards posted.
It interesting that the Spanish were impressed with the ocellated turkeys that the natives had domesticated for their feathers for nearly 1,000 years and, later, for meat. So taken with the birds, the conquistadores exported breeding pairs back to Europe.

Andy Masich