Palembang handle and selut

Gustav · 5th June 2014, 01:16 PM

Here a "cousin" of it - I also doubt, these quite small hilts would come directly from Palembang. My guess was the "upper class" of a Minang population close to Palembang.

Sajen · 5th June 2014, 06:53 PM

Dear Klungkung,

your very nice handle could be Palembang or Minangkabau and maybe also Jambi. The stone is most proable a jimat but I think that the stone cover the natural nerv crevise of the material which I guess to be sperm whale tooth.
Look for example this hilt from my collection where you can see this "nerv crevise" uncovered.

Regards,
Detlef

PS: Forget: The pendokok is IMHO a Minangkabau pendokok.

ganjawulung · 5th June 2014, 10:50 PM

Hopefully, my understanding is not wrong. To my knowledge, style of Palembang carving, its "cukitan" (I don't know the Palembang term of "cukitan", I use common terminology in keris) was not too deep. But fine. Even very subtle. In contrast to Madura, which its cukitan is usually deep. Just possibly, the equipment used to carve different. They use different types of knives. Also Java carving, usually deeper carved than Palembang...

Ganjawulung

Jean · 6th June 2014, 09:22 AM

Pak Ganja,
Is this small hilt with a fine & superficial carving but in a different style originating from Palembang in your opinion?
Best regards

kai · 6th June 2014, 10:28 AM

Hello Jean,

How large is this hilt?

The selut is Minang. The hilt doesn't look like Palembang to me.

Actually, I feel that the Palembang carving is pretty deep, especially if you consider the very narrow crevices cut into the material. I believe Ganja was referring to the kinda 2-dimensional appearance of the "crowded" Palembang carving while the Minang carving gives a more 3-dimensional effect due to more material being cut away between the floral and other elements. Also the overall shape tends to be more rigid/blocky in Palembang JD hilts while Minang and others show more rounded shapes.

Regards,
Kai

Jean · 6th June 2014, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Jean,

How large is this hilt?

The selut is Minang. The hilt doesn't look like Palembang to me.

Actually, I feel that the Palembang carving is pretty deep, especially if you consider the very narrow crevices cut into the material. I believe Ganja was referring to the kinda 2-dimensional appearance of the "crowded" Palembang carving while the Minang carving gives a more 3-dimensional effect due to more material being cut away between the floral and other elements. Also the overall shape tends to be more rigid/blocky in Palembang JD hilts while Minang and others show more rounded shapes.

Regards,
Kai

Hello Kai,
This hilt is very small (6 cm high). I agree that this piece is probably not from Palembang but from where then? The selut was not original to the piece.
Thank you and regards
Jean

T. Koch · 11th January 2015, 09:12 AM

Hi guys!

I'm late to the table here - found the topic while going through the Palembang-posts of the forum. IMO Detlef is probably spot-on: The insert has been done to cover up the natural pulp cavity of the tooth. I have a Madurese "Donoriko" hilt from sperm whale in my collection, with the tooth mounted upside down, so that the cavity is sutuated right at the crown of the hilt. To accomodate this, a seperate piece has been carved with okir and set into the cavity with small ivory pins.

I think this was done, because keris hilts typically are wider at the top and the tooth of course wider at the base.

Detlef, I would say that your's is probably carved from hippopotamus tusk: The pulp cavity in sperm whale teeth is, in my experience, "always" lenticular in shape. Your's is half-moon shaped, like that of hippo tusk and it seems in your last picture, that the TIZ continues over the figure's left ear and down his shoulder?

Great pieces both of them btw!!

Best wishes, - Thor

5th June 2014, 01:16 PM	#1
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	Here a "cousin" of it - I also doubt, these quite small hilts would come directly from Palembang. My guess was the "upper class" of a Minang population close to Palembang. Attached Images

5th June 2014, 06:53 PM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,165	Dear Klungkung, your very nice handle could be Palembang or Minangkabau and maybe also Jambi. The stone is most proable a jimat but I think that the stone cover the natural nerv crevise of the material which I guess to be sperm whale tooth. Look for example this hilt from my collection where you can see this "nerv crevise" uncovered. Regards, Detlef PS: Forget: The pendokok is IMHO a Minangkabau pendokok. Attached Images

5th June 2014, 10:50 PM	#3
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Palembang Hopefully, my understanding is not wrong. To my knowledge, style of Palembang carving, its "cukitan" (I don't know the Palembang term of "cukitan", I use common terminology in keris) was not too deep. But fine. Even very subtle. In contrast to Madura, which its cukitan is usually deep. Just possibly, the equipment used to carve different. They use different types of knives. Also Java carving, usually deeper carved than Palembang... Ganjawulung Attached Images

6th June 2014, 09:22 AM	#4
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Pak Ganja, Is this small hilt with a fine & superficial carving but in a different style originating from Palembang in your opinion? Best regards Attached Images

6th June 2014, 10:28 AM	#5
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Hello Jean, How large is this hilt? The selut is Minang. The hilt doesn't look like Palembang to me. Actually, I feel that the Palembang carving is pretty deep, especially if you consider the very narrow crevices cut into the material. I believe Ganja was referring to the kinda 2-dimensional appearance of the "crowded" Palembang carving while the Minang carving gives a more 3-dimensional effect due to more material being cut away between the floral and other elements. Also the overall shape tends to be more rigid/blocky in Palembang JD hilts while Minang and others show more rounded shapes. Regards, Kai

11th January 2015, 09:12 AM	#7
T. Koch Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Mother North Posts: 189	Hi guys! I'm late to the table here - found the topic while going through the Palembang-posts of the forum. IMO Detlef is probably spot-on: The insert has been done to cover up the natural pulp cavity of the tooth. I have a Madurese "Donoriko" hilt from sperm whale in my collection, with the tooth mounted upside down, so that the cavity is sutuated right at the crown of the hilt. To accomodate this, a seperate piece has been carved with okir and set into the cavity with small ivory pins. I think this was done, because keris hilts typically are wider at the top and the tooth of course wider at the base. Detlef, I would say that your's is probably carved from hippopotamus tusk: The pulp cavity in sperm whale teeth is, in my experience, "always" lenticular in shape. Your's is half-moon shaped, like that of hippo tusk and it seems in your last picture, that the TIZ continues over the figure's left ear and down his shoulder? Great pieces both of them btw!! Best wishes, - Thor