is this a RAMROD

Marcus den toom · 26th May 2014, 06:24 PM

I don't believe either that this tool is for a cannon.
It would be very impractical to use a tool that has to be screwed on and of and changed several times for every shot.
A cannon is a long distance weapon, which was shot more often than a normal musket during battle (it is ussually easier to load a weapon when you are not fired at !!) Cannons beeing out of range for most of the battle, they where relatively save i assume.. eventhough they would be targeted as well when possible.

Coming back to my first point, the cannon would be shot using a ramrod (1), cleaned (2) and in the case of a falconet or small caliber cannon, you might also get the ball out again (3)

So if such a rod would exist of 2 parts, you would constanly be changing.. which makes no sence when all you want to do is pound the guts out of some people a few hundred yards away.

Attached is an artillery cleaning rod, most likely american revolution (about 8feet long, roughly 180cm).

fernando · 26th May 2014, 07:11 PM

If your device were a ram/cleaning rod, the existing threaded end would be to extend a second (and even a third) section and then a final threaded end, often narrower than the sectional ones, would be for the application of a male extraction worm, a cleaning brush or other.
Still the dimension of the so called grip in yours would be too big for the operation.
Something doesn't square here, or this is an atypical specimen, at least to my non experienced eyes.
Attached are examples of 20th century shotgun kits and a replica of a 19th century pistol rod, some time shortened.
Your device, far from being an ancient accouterment, should be comparable to these, i guess

.

.

Matchlock · 26th May 2014, 07:23 PM

Hi, Nando and Marcus,

Sometimes, I too, find it hard to believe that these worms on wooden ramrods actually should have worked and extracted a lead ball without the wood breaking; they are called ball extractors in contemporary documents though, and in my collection are one or two leaden balls that show holes where the worm entered.
We also know that by the early 17th century, musketeers were ordered to extract the ball and powder load from their muskets after keeping watch, and they definitely did not have iron ramrods ...

Best,
Michael

fernando · 26th May 2014, 07:50 PM

Lead is soft. And the cannon and musket balls, before the advent of rifled barrels, had a diameter narrower than the barrel bore (windage), so the friction is reduced when extracting them. Also the pulling action may be done in a rotating mode, which also helps a lot the ball to come out without much fight and without risking to break the rod which, in any case, must be made of the hardest woods ... ebony for one.
Eventually in the cannon case and even if iron balls are used, i realize that what you extract with the worm is the wad (plug); the ball rolls out by itself, once you incline the gun.
It looks as i know the slightest thing about this issue

thinreadline · 27th May 2014, 08:15 AM

Marcus and Fernando ... appreciate your input , however the dimensions of this item are perfectly feasible for a cannon . At no point was I thinking that it was a ramrod for a handgun ! That would of course be absurd !
The fact that this is just half of the rod is not impossible either. The rest of the pole would not have to be screwed on and off between shots .... I think it is more probable that it unscrewed to reduce its length for stowage when NOT in use.

fernando · 27th May 2014, 05:26 PM

No Richmond, this ougth to be something but not a cannon ramrod.
That thick part would have to be the front, whereas it has all ingredients to be in the back, namely a grip. You don't have a rammer with a rounded head and even with that little portrusion, all so much in the shape of a handle.
Also the brass connection is not adequate for a cannon rammer, unless you were talking about some contemporaneous miniature/replica.

-

thinreadline · 28th May 2014, 08:19 AM

yes I see your point Fernando ...

fernando · 26th May 2014, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus den toom

...Attached is an artillery cleaning rod, most likely american revolution (about 8feet long, roughly 180cm)...

And here is a sketch of the whole set:

.

26th May 2014, 07:11 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	If your device were a ram/cleaning rod, the existing threaded end would be to extend a second (and even a third) section and then a final threaded end, often narrower than the sectional ones, would be for the application of a male extraction worm, a cleaning brush or other. Still the dimension of the so called grip in yours would be too big for the operation. Something doesn't square here, or this is an atypical specimen, at least to my non experienced eyes. Attached are examples of 20th century shotgun kits and a replica of a 19th century pistol rod, some time shortened. Your device, far from being an ancient accouterment, should be comparable to these, i guess . . Attached Images

27th May 2014, 05:26 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	No Richmond, this ougth to be something but not a cannon ramrod. That thick part would have to be the front, whereas it has all ingredients to be in the back, namely a grip. You don't have a rammer with a rounded head and even with that little portrusion, all so much in the shape of a handle. Also the brass connection is not adequate for a cannon rammer, unless you were talking about some contemporaneous miniature/replica. - Attached Images

26th May 2014, 06:24 PM	#1
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 534	I don't believe either that this tool is for a cannon. It would be very impractical to use a tool that has to be screwed on and of and changed several times for every shot. A cannon is a long distance weapon, which was shot more often than a normal musket during battle (it is ussually easier to load a weapon when you are not fired at !!) Cannons beeing out of range for most of the battle, they where relatively save i assume.. eventhough they would be targeted as well when possible. Coming back to my first point, the cannon would be shot using a ramrod (1), cleaned (2) and in the case of a falconet or small caliber cannon, you might also get the ball out again (3) So if such a rod would exist of 2 parts, you would constanly be changing.. which makes no sence when all you want to do is pound the guts out of some people a few hundred yards away. Attached is an artillery cleaning rod, most likely american revolution (about 8feet long, roughly 180cm).

26th May 2014, 07:23 PM	#3
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi, Nando and Marcus, Sometimes, I too, find it hard to believe that these worms on wooden ramrods actually should have worked and extracted a lead ball without the wood breaking; they are called ball extractors in contemporary documents though, and in my collection are one or two leaden balls that show holes where the worm entered. We also know that by the early 17th century, musketeers were ordered to extract the ball and powder load from their muskets after keeping watch, and they definitely did not have iron ramrods ... Best, Michael

26th May 2014, 07:50 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Lead is soft. And the cannon and musket balls, before the advent of rifled barrels, had a diameter narrower than the barrel bore (windage), so the friction is reduced when extracting them. Also the pulling action may be done in a rotating mode, which also helps a lot the ball to come out without much fight and without risking to break the rod which, in any case, must be made of the hardest woods ... ebony for one. Eventually in the cannon case and even if iron balls are used, i realize that what you extract with the worm is the wad (plug); the ball rolls out by itself, once you incline the gun. It looks as i know the slightest thing about this issue

27th May 2014, 08:15 AM	#5
thinreadline Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Wirral Posts: 1,204	Marcus and Fernando ... appreciate your input , however the dimensions of this item are perfectly feasible for a cannon . At no point was I thinking that it was a ramrod for a handgun ! That would of course be absurd ! The fact that this is just half of the rod is not impossible either. The rest of the pole would not have to be screwed on and off between shots .... I think it is more probable that it unscrewed to reduce its length for stowage when NOT in use.

28th May 2014, 08:19 AM	#7
thinreadline Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Wirral Posts: 1,204	yes I see your point Fernando ...