What makes a dha a dha

dennee · 5th January 2005, 04:01 AM

In case anyone is interested. Not terribly high quality photo, I'm afraid; unfamiliar camera, dark museum, and they were mounted on a wall overhead in a stairway.

These are in the Pitt-Rivers Museum in Oxford. The label reads "Varieties of the Burmese da for various uses. Pres[ente]d by Capt. R.C. Temple R.E., 1889."

I have some shots of Naga daos and spears and some other Asian miscellany from the same museum, if anyone is interested.

Spunjer · 5th January 2005, 04:04 AM

dennee,

all swords are welcome! please feel free to post your other pics. looking forward to seeing it...

tom hyle · 5th January 2005, 04:24 AM

nice pic, and interesting. Thanks. That one looks really panabassy, don't it?

Ian · 5th January 2005, 04:35 AM

Dennee:

Please do post more pictures.

Like many museum collections, mislabeling is quite common. In the photo you show from the Pitt-Rivers, the bottom one on the right is a form of tool, similar to a heavy knife still used for splitting coconuts. The bottom one on the right is also a heavy utility knife.

The second from bottom on the left is a pisau raut (rattan knife), used for splitting rattan into strips. This style is common today in northern Thailand/Cambodia -- the long hilt is rested against the chest and the blade lies on a flat surface, with the rattan being drawn along the cutting edge towards the cutter who is seated. The second from bottom on the left appears to be a heavier bladed variant of the same.

The rest are knives and short swords, some of which are probably Burmese, but a couple of the longer hilted ones could be Thai. Hard to make out the detail of the hilts. Interesting collection of blades.

Thanks for showing these.

Ian.

wilked aka Khun Deng · 5th January 2005, 08:43 AM

This is a great thread y'all have really made me think and I even sucked my wife into this discussion to clarify some points on language usage.

Excellent points Tom and Andrew, actually the photo that Dennee supplied illustrates this discussion extremely well. As Ian has already correctly identified these I'll talk about the terms in the Thai language used to identify these blades. "meed" is the term used to identify cutting blades in Thai while it can be translated as knife "cutting blade" is more accurate in actual usage. "meed darb" or shortened to just "darb" specifically refers to swords as does the term dha I believe unless modified by a second word.

The rattan knifes in Dennees picture are also called "meed wai", the coconut knifes are called "meed phraa" (chopping blade) now these terms may vary slightly according to region as may the shapes but they all carry the same connotation, that of a utility blade. They were made with a single usage in mind.

To be classified as a dha (darb) they must at least have a dual use as a fighting weapon (yes knives can be fighting weapons, but NOT a main battle weapon) or be designed solely as a fighting weapon. That means it must have the length to reach through an opponent's guard or past his/her shield. It must also have speed of manuveur. Heavy knives and shorter blades don't meet that criteria (and please don't argue fighting techniques - I'm discussing actual usage of the terms). The two on the right in Dennee's photo have that length and would would meet the minimal dual use criteria and the range criteria and would be referred to in Thai as darb or meed darb.

Tom, I think you should see some difference in intent, however I agree you won't see many differences in design or construction in most of the lower class swords as these were generally made by the same village smiths that made the knives. Only the higher grade swords would show that variance in design and construction, and that was usually directed by the person commissioning the blade. Additionally, as with most things, you have those that make the high-end stuff and those that have found their market niche in the low-end.

That top one looks more like a panabas to me - never seen one like it in Siam.

tom hyle · 7th January 2005, 12:25 AM

Tom, I think you should see some difference in intent, [/QUOTE]

'Fraid I don't. The farmer's short swords, especially when they have a point, are certainly intended for violence. They may have features which linguistically or even legally define them as knives (though in this case those characteristics are strictly limitted to shortness, width, and decoration level, all of which seem to me rather nebulous and perhaps irrelevant), but their intent and descent, as well of course as their shapes, are the same as of the "higher end" (and I object to the whole idea of attaching concepts of quality to social status, fanciness, or intended use, since it is an invalid and by no means constantly establishable connection) warrior(?) dhas. We have seen much this relationship very recently with an European sword excavated on Cyprus; clearly a working caste piece, with the flat tang, soft rivets, and layered hilt of a knife (plus peasanty crudity expressed in both the cross section and the lack of taper), but very clearly indeed intended to emulate and serve much as a soldierly sword. Such parrallel strands of folk-level vs. "high" (ie. rich/armigerous/high-caste) culture within the same societies are a thing I find interesting. Similarities; co-ancestralness; mutual copying; unities and dichotomies. The "high" culture perspective feels it neccessary to maintain a division, as this is part of a basis of certain claims and beliefs it enjoys......

wilked aka Khun Deng · 7th January 2005, 01:46 PM

"(though in this case those characteristics are strictly limitted to shortness, width, and decoration level, all of which seem to me rather nebulous and perhaps irrelevant)"

Tom, by this definition a screwdriver, a chisel, and silver chased table knife would all be of the same classification. They all have a one-hand handle, and a blade, however it is the variance of the design (length, width, decoration) for its intended purpose that put these in different catagories.

As for the quality aspect I'm not saying that the dual use utilitarian blades are of less quality some I'm sure are not, but as a generalization in this area of the world swords made for people of rank or status get more attention to detail. Whether I agree with the stratification or not it is a fact of life.

tom hyle · 7th January 2005, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilked aka Khun Deng

"(though in this case those characteristics are strictly limitted to shortness, width, and decoration level, all of which seem to me rather nebulous and perhaps irrelevant)"

Tom, by this definition a screwdriver, a chisel, and silver chased table knife would all be of the same classification. They all have a one-hand handle, and a blade, however it is the variance of the design (length, width, decoration) for its intended purpose that put these in different catagories......

The basic design of the implements you mention is quite different when they are properly made (the screwdriver is built to resist torsional force, a chisel to cut at the end and withstand lengthwise force, and the table knife to cut at the long edge and have fine finger control), and only bear a close resemblance in the crappiest variation of each (the too-flat or thin-tipped screwdriver; the thin flat, tanged chisel; the stamped flatware "knife", and while all occur in a tanged bolstered form this is, actually, indeed a close familial resemblance, with the others copying from this ancient chisel/arrow/spear feature), while these SE Asian peasant "knives" only differ from the "swords" ONLY in size, blade WIDTH *(no other feature of blade or handle design or construction), and decoration.

*hmmmm....is this just as defined relative to length? Because....lightbulb!....the actual width is the same....?! (between a full sized sword dha and a farmer's short sword of 1/2 the blade length, but otherwise similar shape)

Andrew · 7th January 2005, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

...and I object to the whole idea of attaching concepts of quality to social status, fanciness, or intended use, since it is an invalid and by no means constantly establishable connection...

......

The "high" culture perspective feels it neccessary to maintain a division, as this is part of a basis of certain claims and beliefs it enjoys......

Tom, you've lost me here. What are you saying? That high-quality doesn't necessarily equate to high class?

Perhaps, but it is difficult to ignore that better quality weapons, particularly those with extensive decoration with prescious metals and such are usually the property of the rich and/or powerful. With regard to dha, fancy usually equates to status and, although some excellent "workman-like" weapons exist in my collection, it is the higher-end weapons that exibit the better construction and quality. Aside from status, economics would logically dictate this to be so.

Am I misunderstanding your point?

Mark · 7th January 2005, 07:00 PM

As a further comment, with regard to dha, at least in Burma and Thailand, it is not speculation but fact that the opulance and quality of decoration on a sword is a direct indication of social rank and status. In both countries permissible decoration for swords was carefully defined (so many bands meant one rank, more bands meant a higher rank, silver decoration was reserved for a certain level of rank, gold only for royal, etc.). There basically was a visual code which I know exists, but haven't deciphered yet. Its just a matter of collection primary sources, which I am working on.

The other issue is "quality" of the sword, and I agree that a humble-appearing sword can have a very high quality. A couple in my collection are this way -- they have simple fittings but really excellent and well-made blades.

So the issue of "quality" acting as a measure of social division really depends on what sort of quality you mean, because there are very real social divisions in SEA, and they definitely equate to an outward display of greater opulance. Leach writes in "Political Systems of Highland Burma" that among the Kachin hill tribes "Changes in social status such as these [reaching adulthood] are indicated mainly by change of dress. Boys not go through any form of ritual initiation ... As he gets older he will take increasing pride in his skill at handling his sword -- which is a general purpose tool serving equally well for felling trees and paring finger nails; elders of the community can usually be distinguished by the fact that they carry a sword of particularly fine quality." p. 134. It is noted in the "Cambridge History of Southeast Asia" ("CHSEA") that in 1454 king Trailok of Ayutthaya (Thailand) passed a law that determined the civil and military status of everyone inthe kingdom, listing various military titles and their appropriate weaponry. Vol. 1, part 1, p. 38. This law instituted a heirarchical numbering system that applied to everyone in the kingdom and fixed each person's status, and their rights and obligations under the law. CHSEA, vol.1, part 1, p. 171. "The Arts and Crafts of Thailand" (I forget the author and page -- I don't have the book in front of me) also says that the quality of ivory carving on the handle of a knife indicated social status.

5th January 2005, 04:01 AM	#1
dennee Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: College Park, MD Posts: 186	Some pre-1889 working dhas from Burma In case anyone is interested. Not terribly high quality photo, I'm afraid; unfamiliar camera, dark museum, and they were mounted on a wall overhead in a stairway. These are in the Pitt-Rivers Museum in Oxford. The label reads "Varieties of the Burmese da for various uses. Pres[ente]d by Capt. R.C. Temple R.E., 1889." I have some shots of Naga daos and spears and some other Asian miscellany from the same museum, if anyone is interested. Attached Images

5th January 2005, 04:35 AM	#4
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,411	Good stuff Dennee: Please do post more pictures. Like many museum collections, mislabeling is quite common. In the photo you show from the Pitt-Rivers, the bottom one on the right is a form of tool, similar to a heavy knife still used for splitting coconuts. The bottom one on the right is also a heavy utility knife. The second from bottom on the left is a pisau raut (rattan knife), used for splitting rattan into strips. This style is common today in northern Thailand/Cambodia -- the long hilt is rested against the chest and the blade lies on a flat surface, with the rattan being drawn along the cutting edge towards the cutter who is seated. The second from bottom on the left appears to be a heavier bladed variant of the same. The rest are knives and short swords, some of which are probably Burmese, but a couple of the longer hilted ones could be Thai. Hard to make out the detail of the hilts. Interesting collection of blades. Thanks for showing these. Ian.

5th January 2005, 08:43 AM	#5
wilked aka Khun Deng Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oahu, Hawaii Posts: 166	Knife or sword This is a great thread y'all have really made me think and I even sucked my wife into this discussion to clarify some points on language usage. Excellent points Tom and Andrew, actually the photo that Dennee supplied illustrates this discussion extremely well. As Ian has already correctly identified these I'll talk about the terms in the Thai language used to identify these blades. "meed" is the term used to identify cutting blades in Thai while it can be translated as knife "cutting blade" is more accurate in actual usage. "meed darb" or shortened to just "darb" specifically refers to swords as does the term dha I believe unless modified by a second word. The rattan knifes in Dennees picture are also called "meed wai", the coconut knifes are called "meed phraa" (chopping blade) now these terms may vary slightly according to region as may the shapes but they all carry the same connotation, that of a utility blade. They were made with a single usage in mind. To be classified as a dha (darb) they must at least have a dual use as a fighting weapon (yes knives can be fighting weapons, but NOT a main battle weapon) or be designed solely as a fighting weapon. That means it must have the length to reach through an opponent's guard or past his/her shield. It must also have speed of manuveur. Heavy knives and shorter blades don't meet that criteria (and please don't argue fighting techniques - I'm discussing actual usage of the terms). The two on the right in Dennee's photo have that length and would would meet the minimal dual use criteria and the range criteria and would be referred to in Thai as darb or meed darb. Tom, I think you should see some difference in intent, however I agree you won't see many differences in design or construction in most of the lower class swords as these were generally made by the same village smiths that made the knives. Only the higher grade swords would show that variance in design and construction, and that was usually directed by the person commissioning the blade. Additionally, as with most things, you have those that make the high-end stuff and those that have found their market niche in the low-end. That top one looks more like a panabas to me - never seen one like it in Siam.

7th January 2005, 12:25 AM	#6
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Tom, I think you should see some difference in intent, [/QUOTE] 'Fraid I don't. The farmer's short swords, especially when they have a point, are certainly intended for violence. They may have features which linguistically or even legally define them as knives (though in this case those characteristics are strictly limitted to shortness, width, and decoration level, all of which seem to me rather nebulous and perhaps irrelevant), but their intent and descent, as well of course as their shapes, are the same as of the "higher end" (and I object to the whole idea of attaching concepts of quality to social status, fanciness, or intended use, since it is an invalid and by no means constantly establishable connection) warrior(?) dhas. We have seen much this relationship very recently with an European sword excavated on Cyprus; clearly a working caste piece, with the flat tang, soft rivets, and layered hilt of a knife (plus peasanty crudity expressed in both the cross section and the lack of taper), but very clearly indeed intended to emulate and serve much as a soldierly sword. Such parrallel strands of folk-level vs. "high" (ie. rich/armigerous/high-caste) culture within the same societies are a thing I find interesting. Similarities; co-ancestralness; mutual copying; unities and dichotomies. The "high" culture perspective feels it neccessary to maintain a division, as this is part of a basis of certain claims and beliefs it enjoys...... Last edited by tom hyle; 7th January 2005 at 04:33 AM.

7th January 2005, 01:46 PM	#7
wilked aka Khun Deng Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oahu, Hawaii Posts: 166	Intended Use "(though in this case those characteristics are strictly limitted to shortness, width, and decoration level, all of which seem to me rather nebulous and perhaps irrelevant)" Tom, by this definition a screwdriver, a chisel, and silver chased table knife would all be of the same classification. They all have a one-hand handle, and a blade, however it is the variance of the design (length, width, decoration) for its intended purpose that put these in different catagories. As for the quality aspect I'm not saying that the dual use utilitarian blades are of less quality some I'm sure are not, but as a generalization in this area of the world swords made for people of rank or status get more attention to detail. Whether I agree with the stratification or not it is a fact of life.

5th January 2005, 04:04 AM	#2
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	dennee, all swords are welcome! please feel free to post your other pics. looking forward to seeing it...

5th January 2005, 04:24 AM	#3
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	nice pic, and interesting. Thanks. That one looks really panabassy, don't it?

7th January 2005, 07:00 PM	#10
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	As a further comment, with regard to dha, at least in Burma and Thailand, it is not speculation but fact that the opulance and quality of decoration on a sword is a direct indication of social rank and status. In both countries permissible decoration for swords was carefully defined (so many bands meant one rank, more bands meant a higher rank, silver decoration was reserved for a certain level of rank, gold only for royal, etc.). There basically was a visual code which I know exists, but haven't deciphered yet. Its just a matter of collection primary sources, which I am working on. The other issue is "quality" of the sword, and I agree that a humble-appearing sword can have a very high quality. A couple in my collection are this way -- they have simple fittings but really excellent and well-made blades. So the issue of "quality" acting as a measure of social division really depends on what sort of quality you mean, because there are very real social divisions in SEA, and they definitely equate to an outward display of greater opulance. Leach writes in "Political Systems of Highland Burma" that among the Kachin hill tribes "Changes in social status such as these [reaching adulthood] are indicated mainly by change of dress. Boys not go through any form of ritual initiation ... As he gets older he will take increasing pride in his skill at handling his sword -- which is a general purpose tool serving equally well for felling trees and paring finger nails; elders of the community can usually be distinguished by the fact that they carry a sword of particularly fine quality." p. 134. It is noted in the "Cambridge History of Southeast Asia" ("CHSEA") that in 1454 king Trailok of Ayutthaya (Thailand) passed a law that determined the civil and military status of everyone inthe kingdom, listing various military titles and their appropriate weaponry. Vol. 1, part 1, p. 38. This law instituted a heirarchical numbering system that applied to everyone in the kingdom and fixed each person's status, and their rights and obligations under the law. CHSEA, vol.1, part 1, p. 171. "The Arts and Crafts of Thailand" (I forget the author and page -- I don't have the book in front of me) also says that the quality of ivory carving on the handle of a knife indicated social status.