Interesting Tulwar Sword With Ottoman Turkish Blade

Jim McDougall · 7th May 2014, 11:54 PM

Good point Emanuel! there were indeed strong Ottoman influences in the Mughal Sultanates. If I understand correctly even the shape of the quillon terminals in the rounded end on the familiar Indo-Persian tulwar hilts are Ottoman inspired.
I think Jens has probably the best knowledge of the Bidri work, and though I think it was Rajasthan regional style originally, it became of course more widely seen eventually.

I'm curious about why the Baroda seal or device is etched into the blade. Perhaps this was a diplomatic presentation to an influential individual?
It seems to me there were a good number of British businesses and concerns there and if memory serves there were even swords on British M1853 pattern made by a firm called Rodwell & Co there. I believe these large businesses maintained their own police and security forces, as was apparently a circumstance in many of the provincial areas.

Runjeet Singh · 8th May 2014, 02:52 PM

Beautiful sword Charles, nice to have an Indian marking on a (sunning) Turkish blade as well.

Your post coincides with some research I am doing in regards to the relationships with India and Turkey. Namely Hyderabad Royalty marrying Turkish royalty.

Pictured below is an image from the national Portrait Gallery, London. Pictured is Nawab Azam Jah, Prince of Berar (1907-1970), Son of the Nizam of Hyderabad, his wife, Princess Durruhsehvar, Princess of Berar (1914-2006), and the Princesses father, Caliph Abdulmecid Khan II of Turkey (1868-1944).

A friend recently told me about another recent Hyderabad/Turkish Royal marriage, but I am yet to chase that lead up.

Hope that is of some interest.

Kind Regards,
Runjeet

CharlesS · 8th May 2014, 03:15 PM

Interesting stuff Runjeet, and that is some suit the prince is wearing!!

This certainly coincides with some earlier comments.

Jens Nordlunde · 8th May 2014, 04:09 PM

Its an interesting sword you have, and worth researching.
Jim is right, the hilt is Rajasthani, but the decoration has nothing to do with Bidri work.
Susan Stronge: Bidri Ware, inlaid metalwork from India. Victoria and Albert Museum 1985.

Emanuel · 8th May 2014, 04:10 PM

Hello,

Jim, I believe bidriware originated in Bidar, on the border of modern day Karnataka and Andhra Pradesh. It would have been part of the Nizam's Hyderabad State.

Runjeet, when I was in Hyderabad I heard that the Ottoman Sultan had high hopes at the turn of the 20th century for the marriages with the Nizam's family as it would provide access to enormous wealth to fund the Empire's modernization and renewal. For context, the 8th Nizam's fortune was estimated at ~$200 billion in the 1960s, making him something like the 6th richest man in history.

Similarly, the Nizams wanted the link to the Empire and the Sultanate, before its abolishment.

I do recall seeing Ottoman kilij in the Nizam's arms collection
.

Charles, I don't know how this ties into Baroda State and I don't want to push the Hyderabad angle too much if it's a dead end, but it illustrates India's ready access to Ottoman blades.

Emanuel

Jim McDougall · 8th May 2014, 07:30 PM

Thanks guys, and Jens thank you for the correction on the bidri suggestion.
I have always had problems in understanding some of these processes and metallurgy etc. Actually I thought that the bidri process was alternate to koftgari as it was black against silver as opposed to koftgari being gold.

I find that in the Wiki entry it is an blackened alloy of zinc and copper where patterns are carved into the darkened metal and silver in inlaid by being hammered into the grooves carved by stylus. Apparantly the soil indigenous to regions around Bidar (where the technique originated in 13th c.) is mixed with ammonium chloride leaving the bright silver against a matte black background.

It has been mentioned to me that in the case of this hilt, it is silver koftgari, not Bidri work .

I understand that koftari is gold metal hammered into grooves , but bidri is silver hammered into grooves.

Is there some better explanation as to what the differences are? If bidri is silver against black background and silver koftgari is silver over a black background, what is different?

Emanuel, as you have well noted, the presence of Ottoman influence was prevalent in Mughal courts, and diplomatically oriented arms must have certainly been well known. What is most interesting is this thoroughly British seal added to this remarkable blade.

Jens Nordlunde · 8th May 2014, 09:43 PM

Hi Jim,
Have a look here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bidriware
In any way the hilt is not decorated in Bidri - no way. Come to think of it, I cant remember to have seen a tulwar hilt decorated in Bidri.
Could be that I have not seen enough tulwar hilts.
Best
Jens

Jim McDougall · 8th May 2014, 10:36 PM

Hi Jens,
That was exactly the reference I looked at. So then this is not bidri work on this hilt nor does it occur on hilts especially tulwars.......and this would be 'silver koftgari'? If you have not seen bidri on tulwars.....then that is the final word as far as I'm concerned.......nobody knows tulwars like you do!!!

It sounds like the difference between bidri and silver koftgari is similar to that of tom-ay-toe and tom-ah-toe, but as I note, these particulars are outside my field.

All the best,
Jim

7th May 2014, 11:54 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,585	Good point Emanuel! there were indeed strong Ottoman influences in the Mughal Sultanates. If I understand correctly even the shape of the quillon terminals in the rounded end on the familiar Indo-Persian tulwar hilts are Ottoman inspired. I think Jens has probably the best knowledge of the Bidri work, and though I think it was Rajasthan regional style originally, it became of course more widely seen eventually. I'm curious about why the Baroda seal or device is etched into the blade. Perhaps this was a diplomatic presentation to an influential individual? It seems to me there were a good number of British businesses and concerns there and if memory serves there were even swords on British M1853 pattern made by a firm called Rodwell & Co there. I believe these large businesses maintained their own police and security forces, as was apparently a circumstance in many of the provincial areas.

8th May 2014, 02:52 PM	#2
Runjeet Singh Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Warwickshire, England Posts: 150	Beautiful sword Charles, nice to have an Indian marking on a (sunning) Turkish blade as well. Your post coincides with some research I am doing in regards to the relationships with India and Turkey. Namely Hyderabad Royalty marrying Turkish royalty. Pictured below is an image from the national Portrait Gallery, London. Pictured is Nawab Azam Jah, Prince of Berar (1907-1970), Son of the Nizam of Hyderabad, his wife, Princess Durruhsehvar, Princess of Berar (1914-2006), and the Princesses father, Caliph Abdulmecid Khan II of Turkey (1868-1944). A friend recently told me about another recent Hyderabad/Turkish Royal marriage, but I am yet to chase that lead up. Hope that is of some interest. Kind Regards, Runjeet

8th May 2014, 03:15 PM	#3
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	Interesting stuff Runjeet, and that is some suit the prince is wearing!! This certainly coincides with some earlier comments.

8th May 2014, 04:09 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Its an interesting sword you have, and worth researching. Jim is right, the hilt is Rajasthani, but the decoration has nothing to do with Bidri work. Susan Stronge: Bidri Ware, inlaid metalwork from India. Victoria and Albert Museum 1985.

8th May 2014, 04:10 PM	#5
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello, Jim, I believe bidriware originated in Bidar, on the border of modern day Karnataka and Andhra Pradesh. It would have been part of the Nizam's Hyderabad State. Runjeet, when I was in Hyderabad I heard that the Ottoman Sultan had high hopes at the turn of the 20th century for the marriages with the Nizam's family as it would provide access to enormous wealth to fund the Empire's modernization and renewal. For context, the 8th Nizam's fortune was estimated at ~$200 billion in the 1960s, making him something like the 6th richest man in history. Similarly, the Nizams wanted the link to the Empire and the Sultanate, before its abolishment. I do recall seeing Ottoman kilij in the Nizam's arms collection . Charles, I don't know how this ties into Baroda State and I don't want to push the Hyderabad angle too much if it's a dead end, but it illustrates India's ready access to Ottoman blades. Emanuel

8th May 2014, 07:30 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,585	Thanks guys, and Jens thank you for the correction on the bidri suggestion. I have always had problems in understanding some of these processes and metallurgy etc. Actually I thought that the bidri process was alternate to koftgari as it was black against silver as opposed to koftgari being gold. I find that in the Wiki entry it is an blackened alloy of zinc and copper where patterns are carved into the darkened metal and silver in inlaid by being hammered into the grooves carved by stylus. Apparantly the soil indigenous to regions around Bidar (where the technique originated in 13th c.) is mixed with ammonium chloride leaving the bright silver against a matte black background. It has been mentioned to me that in the case of this hilt, it is silver koftgari, not Bidri work . I understand that koftari is gold metal hammered into grooves , but bidri is silver hammered into grooves. Is there some better explanation as to what the differences are? If bidri is silver against black background and silver koftgari is silver over a black background, what is different? Emanuel, as you have well noted, the presence of Ottoman influence was prevalent in Mughal courts, and diplomatically oriented arms must have certainly been well known. What is most interesting is this thoroughly British seal added to this remarkable blade.

8th May 2014, 09:43 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Jim, Have a look here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bidriware In any way the hilt is not decorated in Bidri - no way. Come to think of it, I cant remember to have seen a tulwar hilt decorated in Bidri. Could be that I have not seen enough tulwar hilts. Best Jens

8th May 2014, 10:36 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,585	Hi Jens, That was exactly the reference I looked at. So then this is not bidri work on this hilt nor does it occur on hilts especially tulwars.......and this would be 'silver koftgari'? If you have not seen bidri on tulwars.....then that is the final word as far as I'm concerned.......nobody knows tulwars like you do!!! It sounds like the difference between bidri and silver koftgari is similar to that of tom-ay-toe and tom-ah-toe, but as I note, these particulars are outside my field. All the best, Jim