Lionhilt Broadsword 17th Century?

M ELEY · 6th May 2014, 10:19 PM

Jasper, with those pics, you have just proven one of most daunting questions I've struggled with for years!!! The starting period for when quillon and pommel chain attachments really started/ You've shown through this period artword that it did indeed exist before 1750-60, when many scholars claim it first appeared!

The reason this is monumental to me, being a naval/pirate/nautical collector is because of a certain crossguard found off the coast of North Carolina and attributed to Blackbeard/Queen Anne's Revenge. Jim posted a pic of it a while back and due to the quillon drilled hole, we believed it post-dated Blackbeard's ship, ca. 1718 and thus possibly proved that it wasn't really the QAR. With this new information, it does show that it could very well have been! Thank you for this valuable piece of information! I'm sure Jim will be thrilled as well!

cornelistromp · 7th May 2014, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Jasper, with those pics, you have just proven one of most daunting questions I've struggled with for years!!! The starting period for when quillon and pommel chain attachments really started/ You've shown through this period artword that it did indeed exist before 1750-60, when many scholars claim it first appeared!

The reason this is monumental to me, being a naval/pirate/nautical collector is because of a certain crossguard found off the coast of North Carolina and attributed to Blackbeard/Queen Anne's Revenge. Jim posted a pic of it a while back and due to the quillon drilled hole, we believed it post-dated Blackbeard's ship, ca. 1718 and thus possibly proved that it wasn't really the QAR. With this new information, it does show that it could very well have been! Thank you for this valuable piece of information! I'm sure Jim will be thrilled as well!

HI Mark,
yes it is often difficult to find hard evidence for a certain date of a weapon development, Art and historical important weapons can provide a watertight proof.
I am very glad that this information is useful for you

best,
Jasper

Jim McDougall · 7th May 2014, 09:36 PM

Hi Mark,
This is indeed exiting news, and I do recall that particular event, but at the moment not the details. It does seem that having been located in the proximity of the QAR wreck, the hilt was suggested to have possibly been from that vessel. I think the headline suggesting it might have been Blackbeards sword was a bit sensationalized.

I believe that we perceived that the presence of the chain guard on this type of hanger preempted the period of the scuttling of the Queen Annes Revenge in 1718, and that since the wreck site was in rather heavily trafficked channel, this may have been collateral debris from later period.

The fact that such a feature as chain on the hilt of these Dutch hangers existed considerably earlier than 1718 as shown would suggest it is indeed tenuously possible that the sword could have come from the QAR. The question remains however, since the QAR was not wrecked, but scuttled, and the crew simply left the ship, why would they have left a valuable such as a portable weapon. Obviously the cannon remained, not easily transported to the smaller vessel Blackbeard moved to.

All the best
Jim

M ELEY · 8th May 2014, 06:42 AM

Yes, you are right, Jim! They probably wouldn't have left a sword behind, unless it was broken, damaged, or parts being transported, etc. I remember those trade Spanish blades from the Atocha, all piled on top of each other. In any case, glad that Jasper clarified the issue of this sword feature.

AHorsa · 8th May 2014, 08:55 AM

Supplement to the Lion-Hilts:

I found these to images showing Carl von Rabenhaupt wearing such a sword. On the first one you can guess a monsterhead on the crossguard and a lionhead pommel. The second one shows a figural interpretation of those swords.

Best regards,
Andi

cornelistromp · 8th May 2014, 06:48 PM

great find and link with the Netherlands.
this image of Carel Rabenhaubt is Dutch.

Carel Rabenhaubt
(1602 - 1675) Military, from Bohemia, who gained fame through the siege of Groningen in the Netherlands in 1672.

Through its defense plan - inundation of large areas around the city and obstruct the waterways for landing troops - he endured the siege of Munster Bishop Van Galen.
In Drenthe (province in the Netherlands) he was appointed in the same year to Drost=Sheriff in place of the incumbent drost "van Bernsaw". After the death of Rabenhaupt in 1675 van Bernsaw came back. Rabenhaupt is buried in the Reformed Church of Coevorden in Holland.

AHorsa · 27th September 2015, 03:54 PM

Dear All,

today I visited the "Klingenmuseum Solingen" and found some comparandums which I do not want to withhold from you. Sadly I only had my bad Mobile-camera with me so the image quality is pretty poor.
The sword shown in the 4th image refers very much to the example in the painting shown in #17. Interestingly the museum allocate it to Switzerland but it is shown in a painting of a dutch townguard or the like if I remember well.

@Jasper: I also went through the remarkable sword exhibition and saw your beautiful and interesting loans there!

Cheers
Andi

8th May 2014, 08:55 AM	#5
AHorsa Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Rhineland Posts: 375	Supplement to the Lion-Hilts: I found these to images showing Carl von Rabenhaupt wearing such a sword. On the first one you can guess a monsterhead on the crossguard and a lionhead pommel. The second one shows a figural interpretation of those swords. Best regards, Andi Attached Images

8th May 2014, 06:48 PM	#6
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	great find and link with the Netherlands. this image of Carel Rabenhaubt is Dutch. Carel Rabenhaubt (1602 - 1675) Military, from Bohemia, who gained fame through the siege of Groningen in the Netherlands in 1672. Through its defense plan - inundation of large areas around the city and obstruct the waterways for landing troops - he endured the siege of Munster Bishop Van Galen. In Drenthe (province in the Netherlands) he was appointed in the same year to Drost=Sheriff in place of the incumbent drost "van Bernsaw". After the death of Rabenhaupt in 1675 van Bernsaw came back. Rabenhaupt is buried in the Reformed Church of Coevorden in Holland. Attached Images

27th September 2015, 03:54 PM	#7
AHorsa Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Rhineland Posts: 375	Dear All, today I visited the "Klingenmuseum Solingen" and found some comparandums which I do not want to withhold from you. Sadly I only had my bad Mobile-camera with me so the image quality is pretty poor. The sword shown in the 4th image refers very much to the example in the painting shown in #17. Interestingly the museum allocate it to Switzerland but it is shown in a painting of a dutch townguard or the like if I remember well. @Jasper: I also went through the remarkable sword exhibition and saw your beautiful and interesting loans there! Cheers Andi Attached Images

6th May 2014, 10:19 PM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,158	Jasper, with those pics, you have just proven one of most daunting questions I've struggled with for years!!! The starting period for when quillon and pommel chain attachments really started/ You've shown through this period artword that it did indeed exist before 1750-60, when many scholars claim it first appeared! The reason this is monumental to me, being a naval/pirate/nautical collector is because of a certain crossguard found off the coast of North Carolina and attributed to Blackbeard/Queen Anne's Revenge. Jim posted a pic of it a while back and due to the quillon drilled hole, we believed it post-dated Blackbeard's ship, ca. 1718 and thus possibly proved that it wasn't really the QAR. With this new information, it does show that it could very well have been! Thank you for this valuable piece of information! I'm sure Jim will be thrilled as well!

7th May 2014, 09:36 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Hi Mark, This is indeed exiting news, and I do recall that particular event, but at the moment not the details. It does seem that having been located in the proximity of the QAR wreck, the hilt was suggested to have possibly been from that vessel. I think the headline suggesting it might have been Blackbeards sword was a bit sensationalized. I believe that we perceived that the presence of the chain guard on this type of hanger preempted the period of the scuttling of the Queen Annes Revenge in 1718, and that since the wreck site was in rather heavily trafficked channel, this may have been collateral debris from later period. The fact that such a feature as chain on the hilt of these Dutch hangers existed considerably earlier than 1718 as shown would suggest it is indeed tenuously possible that the sword could have come from the QAR. The question remains however, since the QAR was not wrecked, but scuttled, and the crew simply left the ship, why would they have left a valuable such as a portable weapon. Obviously the cannon remained, not easily transported to the smaller vessel Blackbeard moved to. All the best Jim

8th May 2014, 06:42 AM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,158	Yes, you are right, Jim! They probably wouldn't have left a sword behind, unless it was broken, damaged, or parts being transported, etc. I remember those trade Spanish blades from the Atocha, all piled on top of each other. In any case, glad that Jasper clarified the issue of this sword feature.