Lionhilt Broadsword 17th Century?

cornelistromp · 6th May 2014, 08:28 AM

examples from post 9 have one thing in common , which is the ring guard chiselled in the shape of a lion in deep relief , a real Dutch feature .

f/m a hilt has to be seen as a whole, not as separate elements .
Fe you can find the lionhead pommel on 18th century English hangers and also on 16thC 1+1/2 hand swiss sabers made by Christoph 1 Standler in Germany/Munich.
Fantasy seamonsters heads on 16thC katzbalgers and on early 18thC French small swords .

The combination makes it interesting and helps an arm to be attributed to a particular area.

Remarkably, in the 17th century was the success of the Dutch world trade through the VOC and WIC and the Baltic Sea , and in between European countries, the great military successes against seemingly much stronger countries like Spain and England , the vast fleet - with 2,000 vessels greater than that of England and France together, the flourishing of arts and Dutch science. There was a large flow of goods and people between the countries , which has influenced who and who has influenced whom is hard to say .
.

but one developement can be claimed!
The chain between knuckle guard and pommel is probably a Dutch development from the third quarter of the 17th century. witness a hanger of a member of the city guard of Alkmaar painted by Rotius in 1650( btw a similar shell-guard as the sword in post 1) and the sword/hanger with agate grip worn by Cornelis Tromp (not me) . see attachement.

The development of the lion head pommel probably started around 1500 in Germany and fanned out across Europe in the subsequent 300 years.

best,

AHorsa · 6th May 2014, 09:14 AM

Great explanaition - thank you Jasper!

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

... the sword/hanger with agate grip worn by Cornelis Tromp (not me) .

Best regards,
Andi

M ELEY · 6th May 2014, 10:19 PM

Jasper, with those pics, you have just proven one of most daunting questions I've struggled with for years!!! The starting period for when quillon and pommel chain attachments really started/ You've shown through this period artword that it did indeed exist before 1750-60, when many scholars claim it first appeared!

The reason this is monumental to me, being a naval/pirate/nautical collector is because of a certain crossguard found off the coast of North Carolina and attributed to Blackbeard/Queen Anne's Revenge. Jim posted a pic of it a while back and due to the quillon drilled hole, we believed it post-dated Blackbeard's ship, ca. 1718 and thus possibly proved that it wasn't really the QAR. With this new information, it does show that it could very well have been! Thank you for this valuable piece of information! I'm sure Jim will be thrilled as well!

cornelistromp · 7th May 2014, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Jasper, with those pics, you have just proven one of most daunting questions I've struggled with for years!!! The starting period for when quillon and pommel chain attachments really started/ You've shown through this period artword that it did indeed exist before 1750-60, when many scholars claim it first appeared!

The reason this is monumental to me, being a naval/pirate/nautical collector is because of a certain crossguard found off the coast of North Carolina and attributed to Blackbeard/Queen Anne's Revenge. Jim posted a pic of it a while back and due to the quillon drilled hole, we believed it post-dated Blackbeard's ship, ca. 1718 and thus possibly proved that it wasn't really the QAR. With this new information, it does show that it could very well have been! Thank you for this valuable piece of information! I'm sure Jim will be thrilled as well!

HI Mark,
yes it is often difficult to find hard evidence for a certain date of a weapon development, Art and historical important weapons can provide a watertight proof.
I am very glad that this information is useful for you

best,
Jasper

Jim McDougall · 7th May 2014, 09:36 PM

Hi Mark,
This is indeed exiting news, and I do recall that particular event, but at the moment not the details. It does seem that having been located in the proximity of the QAR wreck, the hilt was suggested to have possibly been from that vessel. I think the headline suggesting it might have been Blackbeards sword was a bit sensationalized.

I believe that we perceived that the presence of the chain guard on this type of hanger preempted the period of the scuttling of the Queen Annes Revenge in 1718, and that since the wreck site was in rather heavily trafficked channel, this may have been collateral debris from later period.

The fact that such a feature as chain on the hilt of these Dutch hangers existed considerably earlier than 1718 as shown would suggest it is indeed tenuously possible that the sword could have come from the QAR. The question remains however, since the QAR was not wrecked, but scuttled, and the crew simply left the ship, why would they have left a valuable such as a portable weapon. Obviously the cannon remained, not easily transported to the smaller vessel Blackbeard moved to.

All the best
Jim

M ELEY · 8th May 2014, 06:42 AM

Yes, you are right, Jim! They probably wouldn't have left a sword behind, unless it was broken, damaged, or parts being transported, etc. I remember those trade Spanish blades from the Atocha, all piled on top of each other. In any case, glad that Jasper clarified the issue of this sword feature.

AHorsa · 8th May 2014, 08:55 AM

Supplement to the Lion-Hilts:

I found these to images showing Carl von Rabenhaupt wearing such a sword. On the first one you can guess a monsterhead on the crossguard and a lionhead pommel. The second one shows a figural interpretation of those swords.

Best regards,
Andi

6th May 2014, 08:28 AM	#1
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	examples from post 9 have one thing in common , which is the ring guard chiselled in the shape of a lion in deep relief , a real Dutch feature . f/m a hilt has to be seen as a whole, not as separate elements . Fe you can find the lionhead pommel on 18th century English hangers and also on 16thC 1+1/2 hand swiss sabers made by Christoph 1 Standler in Germany/Munich. Fantasy seamonsters heads on 16thC katzbalgers and on early 18thC French small swords . The combination makes it interesting and helps an arm to be attributed to a particular area. Remarkably, in the 17th century was the success of the Dutch world trade through the VOC and WIC and the Baltic Sea , and in between European countries, the great military successes against seemingly much stronger countries like Spain and England , the vast fleet - with 2,000 vessels greater than that of England and France together, the flourishing of arts and Dutch science. There was a large flow of goods and people between the countries , which has influenced who and who has influenced whom is hard to say . . but one developement can be claimed! The chain between knuckle guard and pommel is probably a Dutch development from the third quarter of the 17th century. witness a hanger of a member of the city guard of Alkmaar painted by Rotius in 1650( btw a similar shell-guard as the sword in post 1) and the sword/hanger with agate grip worn by Cornelis Tromp (not me) . see attachement. The development of the lion head pommel probably started around 1500 in Germany and fanned out across Europe in the subsequent 300 years. best, Attached Images Last edited by cornelistromp; 6th May 2014 at 10:47 AM.

8th May 2014, 08:55 AM	#7
AHorsa Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Rhineland Posts: 375	Supplement to the Lion-Hilts: I found these to images showing Carl von Rabenhaupt wearing such a sword. On the first one you can guess a monsterhead on the crossguard and a lionhead pommel. The second one shows a figural interpretation of those swords. Best regards, Andi Attached Images

6th May 2014, 10:19 PM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Jasper, with those pics, you have just proven one of most daunting questions I've struggled with for years!!! The starting period for when quillon and pommel chain attachments really started/ You've shown through this period artword that it did indeed exist before 1750-60, when many scholars claim it first appeared! The reason this is monumental to me, being a naval/pirate/nautical collector is because of a certain crossguard found off the coast of North Carolina and attributed to Blackbeard/Queen Anne's Revenge. Jim posted a pic of it a while back and due to the quillon drilled hole, we believed it post-dated Blackbeard's ship, ca. 1718 and thus possibly proved that it wasn't really the QAR. With this new information, it does show that it could very well have been! Thank you for this valuable piece of information! I'm sure Jim will be thrilled as well!

7th May 2014, 09:36 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Hi Mark, This is indeed exiting news, and I do recall that particular event, but at the moment not the details. It does seem that having been located in the proximity of the QAR wreck, the hilt was suggested to have possibly been from that vessel. I think the headline suggesting it might have been Blackbeards sword was a bit sensationalized. I believe that we perceived that the presence of the chain guard on this type of hanger preempted the period of the scuttling of the Queen Annes Revenge in 1718, and that since the wreck site was in rather heavily trafficked channel, this may have been collateral debris from later period. The fact that such a feature as chain on the hilt of these Dutch hangers existed considerably earlier than 1718 as shown would suggest it is indeed tenuously possible that the sword could have come from the QAR. The question remains however, since the QAR was not wrecked, but scuttled, and the crew simply left the ship, why would they have left a valuable such as a portable weapon. Obviously the cannon remained, not easily transported to the smaller vessel Blackbeard moved to. All the best Jim

8th May 2014, 06:42 AM	#6
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Yes, you are right, Jim! They probably wouldn't have left a sword behind, unless it was broken, damaged, or parts being transported, etc. I remember those trade Spanish blades from the Atocha, all piled on top of each other. In any case, glad that Jasper clarified the issue of this sword feature.