Cretan Revolution Weapons 18th century

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by David

Perhaps that is because these items might be more properly placed in the European Forum…

Really?????
Somehow (for the past 17+ years) the yataghans from the Balkans, Greece, Albania etc have been decidedly discussed here as ethnographic weapons. Have these regions now become part of Europe? I better check my latest National Geographic's!! The last I checked Crete was still in the proximity of Greece geographically .

[David]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Really?????
Somehow (for the past 17+ years) the yataghans from the Balkans, Greece, Albania etc have been decidedly discussed here as ethnographic weapons. Have these regions now become part of Europe? I better check my latest National Geographic's!! The last I checked Crete was still in the proximity of Greece geographically .

That's all well and good Jim, but it doesn't seem, as you have so astutely pointed out, that anyone is discussing these particular weapons right here right now. So i was just a simple suggestion of how it might get more response and i am having some difficulty understanding your extreme and somewhat snarky reaction to it.
BTW, the last time I checked, both Greece AND Crete were indeed considered to be part of Europe.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by David

That's all well and good Jim, but it doesn't seem, as you have so astutely pointed out, that anyone is discussing these particular weapons right here right now. So i was just a simple suggestion of how it might get more response and i am having some difficulty understanding your extreme and somewhat snarky reaction to it.
BTW, the last time I checked, both Greece AND Crete were indeed considered to be part of Europe.

Oh...I guess I was having difficulty understanding your suggestion this was more 'properly' placed on the European forum, and of course I would never issue a 'snarky' remark to you!!!....I thought you were kidding

Interesting issue though, which weapons are 'ethnographic' and which are 'European'. While Greece and Crete are of course in the modern European Union, the extremely broadened classification of 'Europe' does bring a sort of paradox to defining these fields of study. Perhaps my own perception but I had not thought of the Balkans and Greece as part of Europe, but apparently that notion should be amended.

Hopefully these notes will help direct future queries and posts on yataghans more 'properly' to the European forum, but I think the ones from Turkey should remain on the ethnographic side.

[David]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

While Greece and Crete are of course in the modern European Union, the extremely broadened classification of 'Europe' does bring a sort of paradox to defining these fields of study. Perhaps my own perception but I had not thought of the Balkans and Greece as part of Europe, but apparently that notion should be amended.

I'm not going to press this issue as i don't really care where these weapons are discussed. Again, i was simply trying to offer an explanation for why this thread may not have received more attention. However, i must point out that the inclusion of Greece into Europe is not some modern convenience of the European Union. Greece has ALWAYS been part of Europe. In fact, the name itself is of Greek origin (Europa from Greek Mythogy.The story of her abduction by Zeus in the form of a white bull was a Cretan story.), first used in the 6th century BC by Greek geographers.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by David

I'm not going to press this issue as i don't really care where these weapons are discussed. Again, i was simply trying to offer an explanation for why this thread may not have received more attention. However, i must point out that the inclusion of Greece into Europe is not some modern convenience of the European Union. Greece has ALWAYS been part of Europe. In fact, the name itself is of Greek origin (Europa from Greek Mythogy.The story of her abduction by Zeus in the form of a white bull was a Cretan story.), first used in the 6th century BC by Greek geographers.

Salaams David, Regarding Greece. Surely it ought to be considered not in respect of where it is today but where it was in the building bricks of history and regional traditions...that is in Asia ...at least partly so...and in relation to its influence and that of its major neighbors...particularly Turkey... in culture, dress, architecture, ethnographic arms and armour , style, food , ....and pretty well everything.

Quote'';Greece (From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

- Independence declared from the Ottoman Empire 1 January 1822
- Recognized 3 February 1830
- Current constitution 11 June 1975
- Joined the EU 1 January 1981

Greece is strategically located at the crossroads of Europe, Western Asia, and Africa, and shares land borders with Albania to the northwest, the Republic of Macedonia and Bulgaria to the north and Turkey to the northeast. The country consists of nine geographic regions: Macedonia, Central Greece, the Peloponnese, Thessaly, Epirus, the Aegean Islands (including the Dodecanese and Cyclades), Thrace, Crete, and the Ionian Islands. The Aegean Sea lies to the east of the mainland, the Ionian Sea to the west, and the Mediterranean Sea to the south. Greece has the longest coastline on the Mediterranean Basin and the 11th longest coastline in the world at 13,676 km (8,498 mi) in length, featuring a vast number of islands (approximately 1,400, of which 227 are inhabited). Eighty percent of Greece consists of mountains, of which Mount Olympus is the highest, at 2,917 m (9,570 ft).

Modern Greece traces its roots to the civilization of Ancient Greece, beginning with the Bronze Age's Aegean Civilizations, and is considered the cradle of all Western civilization. As such, it is the birthplace of democracy, Western philosophy, the Olympic Games, Western literature and historiography, political science, major scientific and mathematical principles, and Western drama, including both tragedy and comedy. The cultural and technological achievements of Greece greatly influenced the world, with many aspects of Greek civilization being imparted to the East through Alexander the Great's campaigns, and to the West through the Roman Empire. This rich legacy is partly reflected in the 18 UNESCO World Heritage Sites located in Greece, ranking it 6th in Europe and 13th in the world.

The modern Greek state, which comprises much of the historical core of Greek civilization, was established in 1830 following the Greek War of Independence from the Ottoman Empire."Unquote.

Thus in Forum terms it would be folly to simply reclassify Greece as "European" Whilst it is technically in the west it is most definitely "Ethnographic" in essence....

I am reminded that one of the most ardent Grecian followers were the Abbasiid dynasty...!!

Common sense dictates a strategy of understanding its important role in Ethnographic terms.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Good David! and I appreciate you explaining your explanation, as I took your note that perhaps if the topic posted was placed 'properly' on the other forum to mean that it must have been 'improperly' placed here on the ethnographic forum. That was to me, for some inexplicable reason, confusing as for the many decades I have studied arms I suddenly and awkwardly felt I had been incorrect in thinking of yataghans as ethnographic.

It was however so kind of you to express your concerns toward the probable reason this thread received no response, and of course the point is that arbitrary categorization as to which forum the topic of Cretan weapons, including yataghans is probably irrelevant. It seems that kris topics are posted as often on the ethnographic forum as on the kris forum, and the discussions seem to progress acceptably despite the location of posting.

The primary objective here is learning I believe, and I say truthfully that I honestly never thought of 'Europe' as including Greece, Crete or many of the countries and regions which apparently are technically included.
Here I would like to thank Ibrahiim for the outstanding material from Wikipedia, which I also looked into, and well explains these 'geographic' matters.

I think he hit the nail on the head when noting that in the west, it is the 'ethnographic essence' with which Greece, Crete and many of these countries are perceived that I must have been thinking of. In nearly 40 years in the travel industry, when people spoke of trips to 'Europe' I cannot think of a single instance where that included Greece! I now feel quite delighted that I am now so much better informed.

Hopefully this little detour in geographic convention, though interesting, will be left behind as once again I implore others with interest in the weapons of Crete to join here with comments and examples .

[David]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Good David! and I appreciate you explaining your explanation, as I took your note that perhaps if the topic posted was placed 'properly' on the other forum to mean that it must have been 'improperly' placed here on the ethnographic forum. That was to me, for some inexplicable reason, confusing as for the many decades I have studied arms I suddenly and awkwardly felt I had been incorrect in thinking of yataghans as ethnographic.

It was however so kind of you to express your concerns toward the probable reason this thread received no response, and of course the point is that arbitrary categorization as to which forum the topic of Cretan weapons, including yataghans is probably irrelevant. It seems that kris topics are posted as often on the ethnographic forum as on the kris forum, and the discussions seem to progress acceptably despite the location of posting.

My last words Jim, and then hopefully this thread can move forward.
Please read what i wrote again, this time with emphasis placed on certain words. "Perhaps that is because these items might be more properly placed in the European Forum…" If i knew for sure i probably would have written something more like "These weapons should be put in their proper place, the European Forum. The divisions here have always been a bit vague to me. So my use of "perhaps" and "might". It was merely a suggestion.
Regarding kris, Moro kris are never discussed in the Keris Forum. They are always Ethno. And Indonesian keris are never discussed in Ethno. Certainly the addition of the Keris Forum might seem strange to some, as they are indeed ethnographic weapons as well. However, the culture of keris was so complex and specific that Rick saw the need and when he asked me to help i agreed that they were best discussed in their own forum. We have, of course, seen some forum like SFI weakened by it's very extensive division of weapons into way too many separated forums. So far i think we have done pretty well with just our three. But all these divisions are artificial at best. Let's see if we can now take this discussion elsewhere (as i do think it is valuable) and get on with Drack2's weapons.

[David]

Well this is just billiant! Why don't we just derail the discussion of these weapons altogether and step out on a long and drawn out debate on whether or not Greece is in Europe or not. I'm sure that is exactly what Jim had in mind when he questioned why this thread hasn't attracted more attention.
Factually, Greece is now and always has been in what is considered Europe. The Greeks invented the word. Their own geographers in ancient times placed them on the western side of the divide between Europe and Asia and so has every geographer since. We cannot, therefore, "reclassify" something as European that has ALWAYS been considered European. That is common sense.
As far as Greece's influences as a "building block of history and regional traditions", i would have to say that the Greek culture had far more influence on the West than the East. As your own Wikipedia posting point out it is considered the cradle of Western civilization (not Eastern), "the birthplace of democracy, Western philosophy, the Olympic Games, Western literature and historiography, political science, major scientific and mathematical principles, and Western drama, including both tragedy and comedy." In other words, it is the birthplace of European culture.
As to what is to be considered "ethnographic", lets look at the definition of the word. From Miriam Webster:
Ethnography: the study and systematic recording of human cultures; also : a descriptive work produced from such research.
Descriptive study of a particular human society. Contemporary ethnography is based almost entirely on fieldwork. The ethnographer lives among the people who are the subject of study for a year or more, learning the local language and participating in everyday life while striving to maintain a degree of objective detachment. He or she usually cultivates close relationships with “informants” who can provide specific information on aspects of cultural life. While detailed written notes are the mainstay of fieldwork, ethnographers may also use tape recorders, cameras, or video recorders. Contemporary ethnographies have both influenced and been influenced by literary theory.
Note there is no mention of geographical place in this definition. Ethnographic study is therefore not limited to Asian cultures as ethnographic studies take place in cultures from ALL parts of the world, including Europe itself. In fact, many ethnographic studies have been done of certain aspects of European cultures. A weapon is not, therefore, "ethnographic" because of where it is from. Common sense would dictate that this is a strategy of understanding that is of prime importance to our understanding of the nature of ethnographic weapons.
I would suggest Ibrahiim, that if you really wish to discuss or debate this question further (and it is indeed a fine question that is of great concern to all our discussions here) that you start a new thread entitled "What is the meaning Ethnographic study". I think it is really good for us to re-examine how and why we make certain categorical divisions in our discussion of certain weaponry. For now i would suggest that we get back to the real questions at hand here about Drac2k's weapons. Continuing this discussion here will only distract from the original purpose of this thread and have the opposite result that i think Jim was really hoping for when he questioned why no one was responding here.

[Jim McDougall]

Leaving the trainwreck behind, I started looking into more on the events which these fascinating weapons may have had a part in, the Cretan Rebellion of 1866-69, as the Cretans fought for independence against Ottoman rule.

Apparently one of the most significant events was the Seige of Arkadi, at this monastery, and the blue flag (attached) was flown there. The bravery and heroism of these patriots was amazing and it is in a sense chilling to view these wonderful examples Skarts was kind enough to share here.

In the original post he has noted that many of the gun components had been brought in from France. It seems I had read of similar instances with Greek forces during their war of independence in 1821, and how many of their firearms were from Europe, primarily France if I recall.

It is stated here that the decoration was completed in Crete, and I would like to look more into the motifs as well as comparison to other Greek weapons of the period. It is noted that the Cretan dagger was distinctly different than others from the Balkans, Greece and other regions, so it would be interesting to examine these differences.
I hope I can get to my copy of Elgoods book!!

What is intriguing here as well is the participation of France, and perhaps other European countries in helping Greece and Crete, countries regarded as at the peripheral boundaries of Europe proper, to fight against the Ottoman suzerains over them.

The map shows Greeks in blue and Turks in red.
The blue flag was flown at the monastery at Arkadi and the letters are for Crete, Enosis, freedom or death'.



Just crossed posts David.....agree...lets move on.