Cretan Revolution Weapons 18th century

Jim McDougall · 2nd May 2014, 05:08 PM

Very well said Nando. It seems there have always been tenuous concerns over whether an item is 'ethnographic' or if it may be considered European , particularly in regions either European colonized or with profound trade with Europe. Much of this has of course been due to the use of European made components in indigenous weapons, or sometimes hybridized forms reflecting European influence.

This was the very reason the European Armoury was begun some years ago. It seemed to me that it would be helpful to have a centralized forum which could focus on the study of the weapon forms which influenced and often provided components in many ethnographic forms. Obviously, in many cases it was difficult to determine which category certain anomalies might be better placed in , and the concept of cross referencing has worked effectively in many instances.

I believe most of the unfortunate misunderstanding in this thread developed from a suggestion that this protocol might have served to facilitate it better which was mistaken in meaning. The point that you make noting that if these weapons were placed in both forums, we would have had the benefit of both considerable fields of knowledge........a most salient point!

The idea that yataghans should be placed in the European section was of course seemingly preposterous, and the rather uncommonly held idea of Greece and Balkans being part of Europe despite being tenuously true revealed interesting perspective to this dilemma. As well noted by Ibrahiim, the concept of Europe geographically is in many cases to do with perception and these regions of the Balkans, Greece and even Russia are considered peripheral parts of Europe.

I would offer cases where yataghans could very well fall into the more stringent European category, and those would primarily have to do with auxiliary units in the armies of European countries using ethnic groups from the Balkans, based often on the Pandour units of the 18th century. There are a good number of examples of these types of yataghans made for European officers, and I have seen them even with European cyphers and motif on the blades.

Oliver Pinchot · 2nd May 2014, 05:37 PM

Many thanks are due to Skarts for bringing this yatagan and pistol to our attention. The fact that they are well-provenanced is very helpful in studying the forms and decoration found on Greek and Ottoman weapons.

The level of workmanship is substantially above average. The stand of arms depicted on the breech plate is more or less typical of Ottoman motifs, however the human and animal figures on the counterplate are uncommon. The depiction of Christ Crowned on the triggerguard is exceptional.

Again, thanks to Skarts for providing these intriguing examples.

Oliver Pinchot

Jim McDougall · 2nd May 2014, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot

Many thanks are due to Skarts for bringing this yatagan and pistol to our attention. The fact that they are well-provenanced is very helpful in studying the forms and decoration found on Greek and Ottoman weapons.

The level of workmanship is substantially above average. The stand of arms depicted on the breech plate is more or less typical of Ottoman motifs, however the human and animal figures on the counterplate are uncommon. The depiction of Christ Crowned on the triggerguard is exceptional.

Again, thanks to Skarts for providing these intriguing examples.

Oliver Pinchot

Thank you Oliver for joining in here!! Its great to see you!

As always your input and observations are paramount.

All the best,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 3rd May 2014, 12:25 AM

Looking further in the Vasilatos book I found more on the scabbard tip motif:

"...the lower part of the silver scabbards almost always end at a dragon or dolphin head, thus creating an integrated decorative impression at the final end of these precious objects".

2nd May 2014, 05:08 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,730	Very well said Nando. It seems there have always been tenuous concerns over whether an item is 'ethnographic' or if it may be considered European , particularly in regions either European colonized or with profound trade with Europe. Much of this has of course been due to the use of European made components in indigenous weapons, or sometimes hybridized forms reflecting European influence. This was the very reason the European Armoury was begun some years ago. It seemed to me that it would be helpful to have a centralized forum which could focus on the study of the weapon forms which influenced and often provided components in many ethnographic forms. Obviously, in many cases it was difficult to determine which category certain anomalies might be better placed in , and the concept of cross referencing has worked effectively in many instances. I believe most of the unfortunate misunderstanding in this thread developed from a suggestion that this protocol might have served to facilitate it better which was mistaken in meaning. The point that you make noting that if these weapons were placed in both forums, we would have had the benefit of both considerable fields of knowledge........a most salient point! The idea that yataghans should be placed in the European section was of course seemingly preposterous, and the rather uncommonly held idea of Greece and Balkans being part of Europe despite being tenuously true revealed interesting perspective to this dilemma. As well noted by Ibrahiim, the concept of Europe geographically is in many cases to do with perception and these regions of the Balkans, Greece and even Russia are considered peripheral parts of Europe. I would offer cases where yataghans could very well fall into the more stringent European category, and those would primarily have to do with auxiliary units in the armies of European countries using ethnic groups from the Balkans, based often on the Pandour units of the 18th century. There are a good number of examples of these types of yataghans made for European officers, and I have seen them even with European cyphers and motif on the blades.

2nd May 2014, 05:37 PM	#2
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 471	Many thanks are due to Skarts for bringing this yatagan and pistol to our attention. The fact that they are well-provenanced is very helpful in studying the forms and decoration found on Greek and Ottoman weapons. The level of workmanship is substantially above average. The stand of arms depicted on the breech plate is more or less typical of Ottoman motifs, however the human and animal figures on the counterplate are uncommon. The depiction of Christ Crowned on the triggerguard is exceptional. Again, thanks to Skarts for providing these intriguing examples. Oliver Pinchot

3rd May 2014, 12:25 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,730	Looking further in the Vasilatos book I found more on the scabbard tip motif: "...the lower part of the silver scabbards almost always end at a dragon or dolphin head, thus creating an integrated decorative impression at the final end of these precious objects".