Cretan Revolution Weapons 18th century

fernando · 2nd May 2014, 02:10 PM

Hi guys,
I sincerely don't understand why any thread containing doubts about where it should be better posted can not be moved or, in the context, copied to another sub-forum.
It was the thread author himself who said the pistol had an European origin and an European lock.
There are certainly members who more frequently (or only) visit one of the forum sections and the thread author (and us all) may only benefit with a wider range of contributions.
I take it that we are all here to collaborate ones with each other; all of us. If the thread was cloned to the European section soon as it was suggested, some approaches would have not taken place as well as any consequent position of strength ... which is always something bitter to swallow.

.

Jim McDougall · 2nd May 2014, 05:08 PM

Very well said Nando. It seems there have always been tenuous concerns over whether an item is 'ethnographic' or if it may be considered European , particularly in regions either European colonized or with profound trade with Europe. Much of this has of course been due to the use of European made components in indigenous weapons, or sometimes hybridized forms reflecting European influence.

This was the very reason the European Armoury was begun some years ago. It seemed to me that it would be helpful to have a centralized forum which could focus on the study of the weapon forms which influenced and often provided components in many ethnographic forms. Obviously, in many cases it was difficult to determine which category certain anomalies might be better placed in , and the concept of cross referencing has worked effectively in many instances.

I believe most of the unfortunate misunderstanding in this thread developed from a suggestion that this protocol might have served to facilitate it better which was mistaken in meaning. The point that you make noting that if these weapons were placed in both forums, we would have had the benefit of both considerable fields of knowledge........a most salient point!

The idea that yataghans should be placed in the European section was of course seemingly preposterous, and the rather uncommonly held idea of Greece and Balkans being part of Europe despite being tenuously true revealed interesting perspective to this dilemma. As well noted by Ibrahiim, the concept of Europe geographically is in many cases to do with perception and these regions of the Balkans, Greece and even Russia are considered peripheral parts of Europe.

I would offer cases where yataghans could very well fall into the more stringent European category, and those would primarily have to do with auxiliary units in the armies of European countries using ethnic groups from the Balkans, based often on the Pandour units of the 18th century. There are a good number of examples of these types of yataghans made for European officers, and I have seen them even with European cyphers and motif on the blades.

Oliver Pinchot · 2nd May 2014, 05:37 PM

Many thanks are due to Skarts for bringing this yatagan and pistol to our attention. The fact that they are well-provenanced is very helpful in studying the forms and decoration found on Greek and Ottoman weapons.

The level of workmanship is substantially above average. The stand of arms depicted on the breech plate is more or less typical of Ottoman motifs, however the human and animal figures on the counterplate are uncommon. The depiction of Christ Crowned on the triggerguard is exceptional.

Again, thanks to Skarts for providing these intriguing examples.

Oliver Pinchot

Jim McDougall · 2nd May 2014, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot

Many thanks are due to Skarts for bringing this yatagan and pistol to our attention. The fact that they are well-provenanced is very helpful in studying the forms and decoration found on Greek and Ottoman weapons.

The level of workmanship is substantially above average. The stand of arms depicted on the breech plate is more or less typical of Ottoman motifs, however the human and animal figures on the counterplate are uncommon. The depiction of Christ Crowned on the triggerguard is exceptional.

Again, thanks to Skarts for providing these intriguing examples.

Oliver Pinchot

Thank you Oliver for joining in here!! Its great to see you!

As always your input and observations are paramount.

All the best,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 3rd May 2014, 12:25 AM

Looking further in the Vasilatos book I found more on the scabbard tip motif:

"...the lower part of the silver scabbards almost always end at a dragon or dolphin head, thus creating an integrated decorative impression at the final end of these precious objects".

Andrew · 3rd May 2014, 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi guys,
I sincerely don't understand why any thread containing doubts about where it should be better posted can not be moved or, in the context, copied to another sub-forum.
It was the thread author himself who said the pistol had an European origin and an European lock.
There are certainly members who more frequently (or only) visit one of the forum sections and the thread author (and us all) may only benefit with a wider range of contributions.
I take it that we are all here to collaborate ones with each other; all of us. If the thread was cloned to the European section soon as it was suggested, some approaches would have not taken place as well as any consequent position of strength ... which is always something bitter to swallow.

.

Nando, I had intended copy the thread link to the Euro forum yesterday, but completely forgot. :0

Will remedy that now.

A

Jim McDougall · 3rd May 2014, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

Nando, I had intended copy the thread link to the Euro forum yesterday, but completely forgot. :0

Will remedy that now.

A

Outstanding Andrew! Thank you.

Jim McDougall · 4th May 2014, 12:18 AM

While this thread has been mirrored on the European side to hopefully gain some additional input from those who frequent there, I wanted to continue my soliloquys here in observing these interesting weapons.

Oliver's note on the distinct and unusual motif on the trigger guard has presented a key talking point. Just how often are trigger guards decorated with motif in relief in this manner, and what would be the reason or symbolism, in doing so.
Knowing Oliver's profound exposure to countless weapons and forms over many years, his noting on this peculiarity on this trigger guard and the crowned Christ theme suggests this is a rare instance indeed.

It seems that Greek and Cretan arms often carry decorative motif with these religious and symbolic themes, and it brings to mind the importance of religious icons and artistry in the Orthodox Faith.

This raises a good talking point on the decorated trigger guard. In checking through resources on firearms there is little, if anything, describing this practice on these pistols.
Has anyone ever seen similar motif or for that matter, any decoration on trigger guards?

2nd May 2014, 02:10 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi guys, I sincerely don't understand why any thread containing doubts about where it should be better posted can not be moved or, in the context, copied to another sub-forum. It was the thread author himself who said the pistol had an European origin and an European lock. There are certainly members who more frequently (or only) visit one of the forum sections and the thread author (and us all) may only benefit with a wider range of contributions. I take it that we are all here to collaborate ones with each other; all of us. If the thread was cloned to the European section soon as it was suggested, some approaches would have not taken place as well as any consequent position of strength ... which is always something bitter to swallow. . Last edited by fernando; 2nd May 2014 at 02:33 PM. Reason: Spell

2nd May 2014, 05:08 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,730	Very well said Nando. It seems there have always been tenuous concerns over whether an item is 'ethnographic' or if it may be considered European , particularly in regions either European colonized or with profound trade with Europe. Much of this has of course been due to the use of European made components in indigenous weapons, or sometimes hybridized forms reflecting European influence. This was the very reason the European Armoury was begun some years ago. It seemed to me that it would be helpful to have a centralized forum which could focus on the study of the weapon forms which influenced and often provided components in many ethnographic forms. Obviously, in many cases it was difficult to determine which category certain anomalies might be better placed in , and the concept of cross referencing has worked effectively in many instances. I believe most of the unfortunate misunderstanding in this thread developed from a suggestion that this protocol might have served to facilitate it better which was mistaken in meaning. The point that you make noting that if these weapons were placed in both forums, we would have had the benefit of both considerable fields of knowledge........a most salient point! The idea that yataghans should be placed in the European section was of course seemingly preposterous, and the rather uncommonly held idea of Greece and Balkans being part of Europe despite being tenuously true revealed interesting perspective to this dilemma. As well noted by Ibrahiim, the concept of Europe geographically is in many cases to do with perception and these regions of the Balkans, Greece and even Russia are considered peripheral parts of Europe. I would offer cases where yataghans could very well fall into the more stringent European category, and those would primarily have to do with auxiliary units in the armies of European countries using ethnic groups from the Balkans, based often on the Pandour units of the 18th century. There are a good number of examples of these types of yataghans made for European officers, and I have seen them even with European cyphers and motif on the blades.

2nd May 2014, 05:37 PM	#3
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 471	Many thanks are due to Skarts for bringing this yatagan and pistol to our attention. The fact that they are well-provenanced is very helpful in studying the forms and decoration found on Greek and Ottoman weapons. The level of workmanship is substantially above average. The stand of arms depicted on the breech plate is more or less typical of Ottoman motifs, however the human and animal figures on the counterplate are uncommon. The depiction of Christ Crowned on the triggerguard is exceptional. Again, thanks to Skarts for providing these intriguing examples. Oliver Pinchot

3rd May 2014, 12:25 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,730	Looking further in the Vasilatos book I found more on the scabbard tip motif: "...the lower part of the silver scabbards almost always end at a dragon or dolphin head, thus creating an integrated decorative impression at the final end of these precious objects".

4th May 2014, 12:18 AM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,730	While this thread has been mirrored on the European side to hopefully gain some additional input from those who frequent there, I wanted to continue my soliloquys here in observing these interesting weapons. Oliver's note on the distinct and unusual motif on the trigger guard has presented a key talking point. Just how often are trigger guards decorated with motif in relief in this manner, and what would be the reason or symbolism, in doing so. Knowing Oliver's profound exposure to countless weapons and forms over many years, his noting on this peculiarity on this trigger guard and the crowned Christ theme suggests this is a rare instance indeed. It seems that Greek and Cretan arms often carry decorative motif with these religious and symbolic themes, and it brings to mind the importance of religious icons and artistry in the Orthodox Faith. This raises a good talking point on the decorated trigger guard. In checking through resources on firearms there is little, if anything, describing this practice on these pistols. Has anyone ever seen similar motif or for that matter, any decoration on trigger guards?