A STORTA for comments

Skarts_ss · 27th April 2014, 07:56 PM

Jim you broke my heart!!!!! But i agree with Jasper for the reasons he mentions

fernando · 28th April 2014, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skarts_ss

... Jim you broke my heart!!!!!...

Well, i confess i was about to also break your heart but, after Jasper comments, i decided to remit myself to silence

.

A Senefelder · 28th April 2014, 05:36 PM

Quote:

however water finds sudenly exposed to oxygen may have a surface orange oxidation arise.

Sure does. I get my wrought iron from a length of river that once had 20 19th century mills along 1/8 of mile that were destroyed in a dam burst 100 years ago. Every piece I've ever fished out of the water will very quickly do exactly this until I clean it for use in forging. They all have the same surface appearance of the OP's sword once they come out of the river and dry.

Jim McDougall · 28th April 2014, 05:53 PM

Good points Alan. I wonder then if this sword might have indeed been in situ in a water oriented situation before excavation, and this rusty state been the result of not observing proper conservation processes?
In many cases I am sure, amateur finds end up in these circumstances and this reinforces all the fuss and painstaking process observed in the proper conservation and stabilizing of underwater discoveries.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 2nd May 2014, 04:11 PM

Salaams all... I think it shows how difficult it is...to avoid the fakes. As this sword was unfolding at #1, I said to myself...'acid ...false patina' etc as I am sure a few other members have done ... but then reading the posts there is always doubt...and as Senefelder notes that is what blades/metal looks like after being in the water for 100 years. Quicker processing in acid has a similar effect..though it would be useful to have a chart of corrosion of blades in various substances..earth, water , acid, sea water etc..maybe there is a metalurgist out there with some sort of chart?
Sometimes a good idea as to authenticity comes in the price... It costs money to process blades and usually forgeries demand high prices.
Just my few cents worth...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

A Senefelder · 2nd May 2014, 05:07 PM

For what its worth, the quillions appear to be iron. I'm seeing the tennonish " woodlike " grain in the places where the material has perished that I see in the old wrought iron I get. Wrought iron stopped being made back in the early 1960's and was not of the same quality as older iron. Most folks who obtain wrought iron today get it from old sources, such as scraped wrought iron fence or like a I know fella who used to blade make in Nova Scotia who obtained a big old anchor dreged up out of a bay that was over 100 years old.

Jim McDougall · 28th April 2014, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skarts_ss

Jim you broke my heart!!!!! But i agree with Jasper for the reasons he mentions

Skarts, I must admit I am delighted to be wrong here !!!

and I am so thankful Jasper entered in on this. What is most important to note is that in the study of these arms, it is all entirely a learning curve, and in this case thanks to his stellar knowledge on these arms, not only have I learned something new, but hopefully all of us have.
It is never about being right or wrong, but about having the most correct data prevail, and learning from discussions which resolve these situations.

Congratulations on your sword, and if I may, in any preservation you attend to it, please remember maximum restraint and focus on stabilizing any active rust. These old swords have well earned the patination (to me I think of it as 'history' incarnate

and respect.

All very best regards,
Jim

27th April 2014, 07:56 PM	#1
Skarts_ss Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 47	Jim you broke my heart!!!!! But i agree with Jasper for the reasons he mentions

28th April 2014, 05:53 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Good points Alan. I wonder then if this sword might have indeed been in situ in a water oriented situation before excavation, and this rusty state been the result of not observing proper conservation processes? In many cases I am sure, amateur finds end up in these circumstances and this reinforces all the fuss and painstaking process observed in the proper conservation and stabilizing of underwater discoveries.

2nd May 2014, 04:11 PM	#5
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams all... I think it shows how difficult it is...to avoid the fakes. As this sword was unfolding at #1, I said to myself...'acid ...false patina' etc as I am sure a few other members have done ... but then reading the posts there is always doubt...and as Senefelder notes that is what blades/metal looks like after being in the water for 100 years. Quicker processing in acid has a similar effect..though it would be useful to have a chart of corrosion of blades in various substances..earth, water , acid, sea water etc..maybe there is a metalurgist out there with some sort of chart? Sometimes a good idea as to authenticity comes in the price... It costs money to process blades and usually forgeries demand high prices. Just my few cents worth... Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

2nd May 2014, 05:07 PM	#6
A Senefelder Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 214	For what its worth, the quillions appear to be iron. I'm seeing the tennonish " woodlike " grain in the places where the material has perished that I see in the old wrought iron I get. Wrought iron stopped being made back in the early 1960's and was not of the same quality as older iron. Most folks who obtain wrought iron today get it from old sources, such as scraped wrought iron fence or like a I know fella who used to blade make in Nova Scotia who obtained a big old anchor dreged up out of a bay that was over 100 years old.