A STORTA for comments

Jim McDougall · 27th April 2014, 03:38 PM

Thank you Jasper, and as always your sound experience with these arms is highly respected. With your observation naturally I regret my assessment that this example might be more modern and that the aging seemed unusual and possibly artificial.

I agree this sword does correspond with the types you note, and though visually similar to some Italian swords, not necessarily the storta.
Can you offer some observations on the unusual and erratic corrosion and patchy variations in the patterns? It would seem that in an excavated example, as this I believe would be presumed, that there would be dark patination and presence of goethite in that.
Is it possible that the deterioration within has become extensive enough that active rust (not usually apparent on old, long deposited items) has become prevalent from within?
I had an old cannon ball for many years almost black with such goethite patination, rough (like an orange) ....then it suddenly began to come apart with orange rust from within, and virtually disintegrated. This sword seems entirely intact and the components sound and undistorted.

All the best,
Jim

cornelistromp · 27th April 2014, 06:35 PM

Hi Jim,

thank you.
it is my personal opinion, not a hard truth.
orange red rust is a warning that it can be a recent oxidation, however water finds sudenly exposed to oxygen may have a surface orange oxidation arise. see for example the hilt 14th century sword/waterfind for conservation.

further I noticed that a part of the "storta" hilt is eaten away, and that the tip is broken off and re-welded, that you actually do not see in recent forgeries.

Furthermore, the value of this 17th century sword in excavated state is lower than the cost of making such a falsification.

best,

Skarts_ss · 27th April 2014, 07:56 PM

Jim you broke my heart!!!!! But i agree with Jasper for the reasons he mentions

fernando · 28th April 2014, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skarts_ss

... Jim you broke my heart!!!!!...

Well, i confess i was about to also break your heart but, after Jasper comments, i decided to remit myself to silence

.

A Senefelder · 28th April 2014, 05:36 PM

Quote:

however water finds sudenly exposed to oxygen may have a surface orange oxidation arise.

Sure does. I get my wrought iron from a length of river that once had 20 19th century mills along 1/8 of mile that were destroyed in a dam burst 100 years ago. Every piece I've ever fished out of the water will very quickly do exactly this until I clean it for use in forging. They all have the same surface appearance of the OP's sword once they come out of the river and dry.

Jim McDougall · 28th April 2014, 05:53 PM

Good points Alan. I wonder then if this sword might have indeed been in situ in a water oriented situation before excavation, and this rusty state been the result of not observing proper conservation processes?
In many cases I am sure, amateur finds end up in these circumstances and this reinforces all the fuss and painstaking process observed in the proper conservation and stabilizing of underwater discoveries.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 2nd May 2014, 04:11 PM

Salaams all... I think it shows how difficult it is...to avoid the fakes. As this sword was unfolding at #1, I said to myself...'acid ...false patina' etc as I am sure a few other members have done ... but then reading the posts there is always doubt...and as Senefelder notes that is what blades/metal looks like after being in the water for 100 years. Quicker processing in acid has a similar effect..though it would be useful to have a chart of corrosion of blades in various substances..earth, water , acid, sea water etc..maybe there is a metalurgist out there with some sort of chart?
Sometimes a good idea as to authenticity comes in the price... It costs money to process blades and usually forgeries demand high prices.
Just my few cents worth...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Jim McDougall · 28th April 2014, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skarts_ss

Jim you broke my heart!!!!! But i agree with Jasper for the reasons he mentions

Skarts, I must admit I am delighted to be wrong here !!!

and I am so thankful Jasper entered in on this. What is most important to note is that in the study of these arms, it is all entirely a learning curve, and in this case thanks to his stellar knowledge on these arms, not only have I learned something new, but hopefully all of us have.
It is never about being right or wrong, but about having the most correct data prevail, and learning from discussions which resolve these situations.

Congratulations on your sword, and if I may, in any preservation you attend to it, please remember maximum restraint and focus on stabilizing any active rust. These old swords have well earned the patination (to me I think of it as 'history' incarnate

and respect.

All very best regards,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 27th April 2014, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

Hi Jim,

thank you.
it is my personal opinion, not a hard truth.
orange red rust is a warning that it can be a recent oxidation, however water finds sudenly exposed to oxygen may have a surface orange oxidation arise. see for example the hilt 14th century sword/waterfind for conservation.

further I noticed that a part of the "storta" hilt is eaten away, and that the tip is broken off and re-welded, that you actually do not see in recent forgeries.

Furthermore, the value of this 17th century sword in excavated state is lower than the cost of making such a falsification.

best,

Again, thank you Jasper for the informative and well explained observations, and your points are well placed. I did not see the rewelded tip and the corroded away part of the hilt (I really do have new glasses pending

so what you say is entirely understandable about feasibility of reproduction.

I am glad for Skarts, as I would rather have a positive assessment and it is good of you to add your very valid comments. While this example is in rough condition, I would rather have a soundly historic piece than one which is pristine but of questionable pedigree.

All the very best,
Jim

27th April 2014, 06:35 PM	#2
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	Hi Jim, thank you. it is my personal opinion, not a hard truth. orange red rust is a warning that it can be a recent oxidation, however water finds sudenly exposed to oxygen may have a surface orange oxidation arise. see for example the hilt 14th century sword/waterfind for conservation. further I noticed that a part of the "storta" hilt is eaten away, and that the tip is broken off and re-welded, that you actually do not see in recent forgeries. Furthermore, the value of this 17th century sword in excavated state is lower than the cost of making such a falsification. best, Attached Images

27th April 2014, 03:38 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,282	Thank you Jasper, and as always your sound experience with these arms is highly respected. With your observation naturally I regret my assessment that this example might be more modern and that the aging seemed unusual and possibly artificial. I agree this sword does correspond with the types you note, and though visually similar to some Italian swords, not necessarily the storta. Can you offer some observations on the unusual and erratic corrosion and patchy variations in the patterns? It would seem that in an excavated example, as this I believe would be presumed, that there would be dark patination and presence of goethite in that. Is it possible that the deterioration within has become extensive enough that active rust (not usually apparent on old, long deposited items) has become prevalent from within? I had an old cannon ball for many years almost black with such goethite patination, rough (like an orange) ....then it suddenly began to come apart with orange rust from within, and virtually disintegrated. This sword seems entirely intact and the components sound and undistorted. All the best, Jim

27th April 2014, 07:56 PM	#3
Skarts_ss Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 47	Jim you broke my heart!!!!! But i agree with Jasper for the reasons he mentions

28th April 2014, 05:53 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,282	Good points Alan. I wonder then if this sword might have indeed been in situ in a water oriented situation before excavation, and this rusty state been the result of not observing proper conservation processes? In many cases I am sure, amateur finds end up in these circumstances and this reinforces all the fuss and painstaking process observed in the proper conservation and stabilizing of underwater discoveries.

2nd May 2014, 04:11 PM	#7
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams all... I think it shows how difficult it is...to avoid the fakes. As this sword was unfolding at #1, I said to myself...'acid ...false patina' etc as I am sure a few other members have done ... but then reading the posts there is always doubt...and as Senefelder notes that is what blades/metal looks like after being in the water for 100 years. Quicker processing in acid has a similar effect..though it would be useful to have a chart of corrosion of blades in various substances..earth, water , acid, sea water etc..maybe there is a metalurgist out there with some sort of chart? Sometimes a good idea as to authenticity comes in the price... It costs money to process blades and usually forgeries demand high prices. Just my few cents worth... Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.