Words and bids

[Miyamoto]

Nice one! It I'd bee worth having it for a 10% of that sum...

Is it an early nimcha with early, maybe 17th century ottoman blade? Or much a more recent one in bad condition? I cannot tell, but if it was found in Hungary, I have a theory:

Well, It isn't Hungarian for sure.

Here

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...0%3D%26fvi%3D1

is another blade, put for sale recently by Ashoka. Wich is verry similar to the one above. Well, I cannot be certain until I'll hold it in my hands but it looks all about the same style as a Slovenian type of sword, Tolmin town area, from the beginnig of the 18th century (I'll post a photo from a book) The blade is what I would think from 17th century and Ottoman origin (east black sea area, correct me if i'm wrong), from the time od the turkish incursions, then obviusly rehilted by locals and used in the last great villeins rebelion (1713). The villagers kept a lot of old turkish weapons securely in their hideouts, concealed and ready to be used in uprisings.

Well it is only a speculation of a not-so-knoledgeable-but-logical-thinking guy, but that blade could be turkish (north african troops) from the time of turkish incursions in the austrian empire. If that's the case, the sword was not overpriced

[ariel]

Miyamoto:
Totally wrong.
The "Slovenian" blade is not Slovenian at all.
It is a classic Beduin sword from Sinai, Negev, Transjordan. I have four of those and Artzi has one in his Gallery. The blade is a standard local concoction. Old, but definitely not high quality.
The Hungarian stuff... Of course, it is a Nimcha, and I presume with a locally made low quality N. African blade. I admire the way it was cleaned, though: from just rusty junk it was transformed into a Dali-esque multiplanar abstract structure.....
Well, some people are very, very gullible and some other people are using it...

[Justin]

I agree with Ariel the sword you purchased was a Bedouin{spelling?} saber,I think they are from the Siani {again Im sure I spelled that wrong} peninsula.

[ham]

Gentlemen,

To give Miyamoto his due, there was a 16th-17th century Central European form of saber which looks a great deal like the Sinai bedouin type. In both cases, the hilt is no-frills ergonomic with an asymmetrical projection at guard and pommel with exceedingly similar blade type, and neither is generally given to excessive ornamention. It is not unreasonable to confuse the two.
Incidentally, are there no rules of comportment to this forum or is it simply considered appropriate to snap at a colleague, particularly a junior colleague, "totally wrong" particularly when they are not... or am I the only member who would prefer to see a little more courtesy and a bit less statement of hearsay as fact?

Ham

[Rivkin]

Ham,

I'm a little bit surprised - most of the times I publish something at least one of the referees is going to say something really insulting.
I always thought that it's probably the same in history related journals ?

Sincerely yours,

K.Rivkin

[Miyamoto]

Am I really totaly wrong?

If Ashoka knew what it was, and he is a great connosieur of asiatic arms I think, he would obviously write it down...

Look carefully to both of the auctions again. Eftis wouldn't lie that it was found in Hungary (wich is the case, that it is verry close to Slovenia) I think. And Ashoka would be certain of its origin if it were rather a recent beduin piece. Ab further there is strong evidence that a similar weapon (again with turkish blade) was used in central Europe 300 years ago...

Now look at the picture from my book.

No, I do not feel offended and Ok, maybe I'm wrong, but at least not totally.

[Rivkin]

Originally Posted by Miyamoto

Am I really totaly wrong?

If Ashoka knew what it was, and he is a great connosieur of asiatic arms I think, he would obviously write it down...

Look carefully to both of the auctions again. Eftis wouldn't lie that it was found in Hungary (wich is the case, that it is verry close to Slovenia) I think. And Ashoka would be certain of its origin if it were rather a recent beduin piece. Ab further there is strong evidence that a similar weapon (again with turkish blade) was used in central Europe 300 years ago...

I think Eftis said "purchased from a hungarian collector". Does not mean he observed it's being excavated... In general there is a lot of eastern stuff being sold as eastern european - the reason being that the arms of eastern europe are the arms or steppe tribes (well, not to mention that genetically eastern europeans are in between of Khazach and Kyrgyz people).

The same problem comes up here and there with turkish karabela being sold as "polish sword" etc.

Concerning the beduin blade - I also thought the first time I've seen this sword "hey, here is afghani-uzbek shashka"... However the hilt seemed suspicious to me. But I'm a newbie and ariel is the shashka guy.
I don't think in this case someone suffered a financial setback, because I think afghani shashkas command similar prices to beduin pieces, and most of them are basically from the same period - XIX to early XX century ?

Ham: I'm genuinely surprised. Just to give you a sence of "how it can be" - the guy I know was recently hired by a high profile institution. One of the first thing he did - made sure that everyone who disagreed with his scientific theories and does not have a tenure, got fired. Made sure these guys will not a position in good places, too.

[ham]

I'm a little bit surprised - most of the times I publish something at least one of the referees is going to say something really insulting.
I always thought that it's probably the same in history related journals ?

Sorry to hear that, doesn't sound like a very nurturing academic environment.

Not to muddy the waters further-- the sword in question which appeared on eBay was certainly a Bedouin type. As to the assumed knowledge of sellers out there... caveat emptor.

Ham

[Mark]

Originally Posted by ham

Incidentally, are there no rules of comportment to this forum or is it simply considered appropriate to snap at a colleague, particularly a junior colleague, "totally wrong" particularly when they are not... or am I the only member who would prefer to see a little more courtesy and a bit less statement of hearsay as fact?

Ham

Of course there are rules. We try not to be heavy-handed about enforcement, and expect members to have a minimum of thick skin, and understand that things written in brief often appear to be brusker than the poster intended. I think everyone here can tell the difference between an insult, and a mere quick retort, so lighten up.

We can't seem to win either way, here. We enforce the rules strictly and we get accused of censorship, we give people some latitute and we get accused of negligence. Try walking a mile in our shoes before being critical of how we run things. You have it pretty damn good here.