Saying HI and looking for some help ......

David · 23rd April 2014, 03:16 AM

Honestly, i know next to nothing about these kind of blades, but to my eye the blade itself is clearly the model 1827. The hilt looks more like that found on similar Austro/German/Hungarian models. I would suggest that this knife had its original hilt swapped out from a different model at some time.

Jim McDougall · 23rd April 2014, 05:12 AM

You're very welcome jman, I only wish I could have found something more helpful.
I did continue with an online search after exhausting my resources here in the bookmobile, and I did find one of these illustrated but with a curious ribbed and apparently leather covered grip. It had a strange pommel, but most important it had the M1827 blade and the odd jian like guard.

I agree that this blade is an 1827, and the wood grip most resembles the Austro-Hungarian M1862.

The one similar I found was on another website, 'Bladesmith Forum' and a thread from May 21,2006....the example was posted by a 'Svet' 1/16/07.

While 'Svet' identifies this as Russian, he offers no particulars and that he had already sold it.
I wonder if the example you have posted might be composite with the 1827 blade, the Austrian grip and one of these unusual guards. This guard reminds me of 19th century and later Chinese jian guards, but cant recall for certain where I had seen them .

All the best,
Jim

David · 23rd April 2014, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I did continue with an online search after exhausting my resources here in the bookmobile, and I did find one of these illustrated but with a curious ribbed and apparently leather covered grip. It had a strange pommel, but most important it had the M1827 blade and the odd jian like guard.

I agree that this blade is an 1827, and the wood grip most resembles the Austro-Hungarian M1862.

The one similar I found was on another website, 'Bladesmith Forum' and a thread from May 21,2006....the example was posted by a 'Svet' 1/16/07.

While 'Svet' identifies this as Russian, he offers no particulars and that he had already sold it.

A link to this Bladesmith Forum might be helpful Jim.

Jim McDougall · 23rd April 2014, 04:29 PM

https://www.google.com/search?source...&fromMainBar=1

David,
I had lost the original link unfortunately and thought by simply entering the data and name of the forum anyone could look it up on Google. I was apparently wrong as it is difficult to use the search on the forum without joining etc.
I have a new computer and my skills are pretty shallow as it is, so I regret not having saved the images or links. I guess I get a bit nervous on posting links and photos due to restrictions etc.
I found links to a site discussing Russian markings as well as the forum which I believe this example with the crescent like guard, which had the same guard and blade but the guard was ribbed like a cavalry sabre.

I also discovered that in the 1970s a small number of reproductions of the M1827 were made, and in more recent times others made as well, but these are all with the usual cast brass hilt.

I would note that on reproductions, there are as far as I have known, never been these kinds of markings or stamps associated with either manufacturing control, issuance and acceptance or sometimes unit designations. While seemingly insignificant and inconsistent, such as the rather bold 'Zlatoust' and others, these had distinct meanings for the many bureaucratic designations of units, and the many districts they were in .

I will keep trying to find the other image I had of the sword I mentioned.
Its really pretty amazing how much data can be found online!!! and Im working at entering the new world of technology

Its hard when you're old school and still using books and notes!

Jim McDougall · 23rd April 2014, 04:49 PM

Found it! The wood hilt is of course the M1862 Austro-Hungarian pioneer sword and the other is the one on the forum I noted. This was sold by 'Svet in 2007, and I found the thread by using 'Russian pioneer sword M1827 posted by Svet' (using Google).
He notes it is Russian in the text, but no reference further.

It would seem that the example we are discussing here is likely a combining of the original blade with this guard and an Austrian hilt.

David · 23rd April 2014, 05:00 PM

Good searching Jim. There is also this thread on Bladesmith Forum that presents an example with the same cross guard, but a somewhat different style hilt.
http://www.bladesmithsforum.com/inde...ord#entry61843

Jim McDougall · 23rd April 2014, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Good searching Jim. There is also this thread on Bladesmith Forum that presents an example with the same cross guard, but a somewhat different style hilt.
http://www.bladesmithsforum.com/inde...ord#entry61843

Thanks David, that's the one I was trying to show but I inadvertently posted the image of the standard M1827.
Wish we knew where this one came from but is a post from 2007 and the sword sold then.

23rd April 2014, 04:49 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,200	Found it! The wood hilt is of course the M1862 Austro-Hungarian pioneer sword and the other is the one on the forum I noted. This was sold by 'Svet in 2007, and I found the thread by using 'Russian pioneer sword M1827 posted by Svet' (using Google). He notes it is Russian in the text, but no reference further. It would seem that the example we are discussing here is likely a combining of the original blade with this guard and an Austrian hilt. Attached Images

23rd April 2014, 05:00 PM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,212	Good searching Jim. There is also this thread on Bladesmith Forum that presents an example with the same cross guard, but a somewhat different style hilt. http://www.bladesmithsforum.com/inde...ord#entry61843 Attached Images

23rd April 2014, 03:16 AM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,212	Honestly, i know next to nothing about these kind of blades, but to my eye the blade itself is clearly the model 1827. The hilt looks more like that found on similar Austro/German/Hungarian models. I would suggest that this knife had its original hilt swapped out from a different model at some time.

23rd April 2014, 05:12 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,200	You're very welcome jman, I only wish I could have found something more helpful. I did continue with an online search after exhausting my resources here in the bookmobile, and I did find one of these illustrated but with a curious ribbed and apparently leather covered grip. It had a strange pommel, but most important it had the M1827 blade and the odd jian like guard. I agree that this blade is an 1827, and the wood grip most resembles the Austro-Hungarian M1862. The one similar I found was on another website, 'Bladesmith Forum' and a thread from May 21,2006....the example was posted by a 'Svet' 1/16/07. While 'Svet' identifies this as Russian, he offers no particulars and that he had already sold it. I wonder if the example you have posted might be composite with the 1827 blade, the Austrian grip and one of these unusual guards. This guard reminds me of 19th century and later Chinese jian guards, but cant recall for certain where I had seen them . All the best, Jim

23rd April 2014, 04:29 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,200	https://www.google.com/search?source...&fromMainBar=1 David, I had lost the original link unfortunately and thought by simply entering the data and name of the forum anyone could look it up on Google. I was apparently wrong as it is difficult to use the search on the forum without joining etc. I have a new computer and my skills are pretty shallow as it is, so I regret not having saved the images or links. I guess I get a bit nervous on posting links and photos due to restrictions etc. I found links to a site discussing Russian markings as well as the forum which I believe this example with the crescent like guard, which had the same guard and blade but the guard was ribbed like a cavalry sabre. I also discovered that in the 1970s a small number of reproductions of the M1827 were made, and in more recent times others made as well, but these are all with the usual cast brass hilt. I would note that on reproductions, there are as far as I have known, never been these kinds of markings or stamps associated with either manufacturing control, issuance and acceptance or sometimes unit designations. While seemingly insignificant and inconsistent, such as the rather bold 'Zlatoust' and others, these had distinct meanings for the many bureaucratic designations of units, and the many districts they were in . I will keep trying to find the other image I had of the sword I mentioned. Its really pretty amazing how much data can be found online!!! and Im working at entering the new world of technology Its hard when you're old school and still using books and notes!