Blade origin of Manding sword?

Tim Simmons · 25th March 2014, 07:48 PM

Yes the larger versions are always made from European sword blade. This example is a shorter lighter version.

blue lander · 25th March 2014, 08:30 PM

Ah, okay. The blade on this one is 62cm long.

Quote:

The blade has a cross section with the fuller in a depression termed 'hollow ground', characteristic of these 19th century military swords and not as far as I have known, ever produced in the more basic blade production of native artisans. While this one is heavily ground down so markings etc are gone, this hollow ground fuller is still visible. While native armourers are known to have been remarkably skilled at forging and fashioning quality blades, they did not have the industrial equipment to produce these hollow ground blades.

I didn't want to insult the capabilities of the native blacksmiths, especially after owning a couple of very nice native made Kaskaras which I admire very much, but my gut instinct was that this was a little too refined to have been made by hand over there. I do still wonder what this started out as, since the blade is much more curved than the 19th century sabers I own. It reminded me more of a Polish szabla or a turkish blade.

Another data point: I flexed the blade by hand and the "false edge" tip of the blade permanently bent very easily (I won't be trying this again). The rest of the blade resisted fine, so maybe the tip had been weakened since material removed to make the false edge. I bent it back straight just as easily. The only two European swords I have are an 1867 Austrian infantry officer's saber and an 1889 Prussian cavarly degen. Both easily resisted the same amount of pressure without taking a permanent bend.

Tim Simmons · 25th March 2014, 09:33 PM

Well that is not really like for like. State or rather rich empire manufacture verses semi desert nomads which is why I find them interesting.

blue lander · 25th March 2014, 10:07 PM

I bring it up because I'm not convinced it's origin is indigious or European, and its excessive bendiness is another point in the "indiginous" column. The deep, wide, straight hollow ground fuller is a point on the "European" side. Was this blade forged from scrap metal in west Africa post WWII, or was it made in the 1800's in Solingen or Chatellerault or Sheffield.

Jim McDougall · 25th March 2014, 10:18 PM

While Im not well enough versed to describe the particulars, it is my understanding that one of the great innovations in blade production for swords which made German blades so successful was this process of hollow grinding the blade face rather than the drawn fullering. It seems this required certain machinery or equipment not typically found in more basic blacksmithing contexts.

While this blade may be smaller, it has clearly been reworked and reprofiled and from the sound of the description quite a bit of stock removed. The very sharp point is of course not typical of these sabre blades.

There is no affront whatsoever to native smiths concerning the comparison of this type blade to the other forms they normally produce. In fact, it is now well known that many blades of exceptional quality were indeed native produced when they had originally been thought to be European.

Tim Simmons · 26th March 2014, 08:09 AM

Another reason for my doubts of a reworked European blade is, European blades are used and reworked on larger sabre and are clearly what they are. Also I find it hard to believe the sword makers would then make such an tidy conversion for smaller sabre. They might well be made from scrap iron. Perhaps your one is a little softer at the tip than others?

25th March 2014, 10:07 PM	#4
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	I bring it up because I'm not convinced it's origin is indigious or European, and its excessive bendiness is another point in the "indiginous" column. The deep, wide, straight hollow ground fuller is a point on the "European" side. Was this blade forged from scrap metal in west Africa post WWII, or was it made in the 1800's in Solingen or Chatellerault or Sheffield. Last edited by blue lander; 25th March 2014 at 10:19 PM.

25th March 2014, 07:48 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	Yes the larger versions are always made from European sword blade. This example is a shorter lighter version.

25th March 2014, 09:33 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	Well that is not really like for like. State or rather rich empire manufacture verses semi desert nomads which is why I find them interesting.

25th March 2014, 10:18 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,282	While Im not well enough versed to describe the particulars, it is my understanding that one of the great innovations in blade production for swords which made German blades so successful was this process of hollow grinding the blade face rather than the drawn fullering. It seems this required certain machinery or equipment not typically found in more basic blacksmithing contexts. While this blade may be smaller, it has clearly been reworked and reprofiled and from the sound of the description quite a bit of stock removed. The very sharp point is of course not typical of these sabre blades. There is no affront whatsoever to native smiths concerning the comparison of this type blade to the other forms they normally produce. In fact, it is now well known that many blades of exceptional quality were indeed native produced when they had originally been thought to be European.

26th March 2014, 08:09 AM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	Another reason for my doubts of a reworked European blade is, European blades are used and reworked on larger sabre and are clearly what they are. Also I find it hard to believe the sword makers would then make such an tidy conversion for smaller sabre. They might well be made from scrap iron. Perhaps your one is a little softer at the tip than others?