Flintlock Chronology, 1610's to 1720's

Fernando K · 15th March 2014, 07:53 PM

Hello, Marcus

Excellent work, but would have to include the lock from another source, such as the English, Scottish, SPANISH, Portuguese, Italians, etc.. Also important the shooting method.

Affectionately. Fernando k

(Sorry for the translator)

Matchlock · 16th March 2014, 11:14 AM

Hi Marcus,

That's a very good job you did here!

As this is very tricky matter literally requiring decades of experience, I'd like to add a few annotations here.

When it comes to dating, though, one should discern whether the barrel or the lock mechanism is dated; otherwise a later lock could have been stocked re-using an earlier dated barrel.

It is exactly this feeling that I get when looking at the latest instances posted here; while the lock of the gun dated 1709 is exactly ca. 1720-25 (for France), the one at the bottom, in a gun dated 'ca. 1720'), can, in my opinion, not be older than ca. 1730-40.

We should also bear in mind that in the 17th and 18th century - the Baroque and Rococo periods - , France, and especially Paris, had the role of a vanguard in art style which all other countries adopted - with a certain delay, of course! During the 16th c., Italy was first to set up the Renaissance style.

For example, if a French civilian flintlock mechanism is signed by a Paris maker and dated 1719, it will look exactly like a top style Bavarian civilian mechanism dated 1730, with its flat cock and banana shaped concave lower edge of the lock plate! On the other hand, there are many samples of Bavarian military flintlock muskets of the 1730's to ca. 1750 the locks of which look exactly as if they were made in Paris in ca. 1690 - with their big, rounded cocks, broad oval steels and banana shaped, concave lower edges of the lock plate!!!

The flintlock mechanism of the heavy wall gun, ca. 1645, from the Schloss Dyck collection, then once in my possession and posted here, is so close in date to contemporary French locks because it was made near the French-German border!
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...l+schloss+dyck

The same is true for the 1690's lock mechanism of the Bongarde style gun posted above: Bongarde worked in Düsseldorf, next to the Belgian-French influence!

Apart from the regional influences on dating a gun, there is another variant to be considered: the age of the gun maker. E.g., when a gun is signed and dated, and we can trace back the life data of the maker, it will most probably be an old-style gun if the maker himself was an elderly man himself by the time he signed the piece!

Best,
Michael

Marcus den toom · 16th March 2014, 11:46 AM

Hi Fernando K and Michl,

Thank you both for your kind post and compliment.

You are both right to say that to make this time line more accurate, it would need also locks from other countries.
As Michl pointed out, the early flintlocks where designed in France, Paris. During my research i found that there are many instances of flintlocks in other countries which would be dated older when looking at my study. Germany and the Netherlands seem to be adopting the styles the quickest, though with minor differences like the lack of the 'toe' (see the schloss Dyck lock).

Hopefully in the near future i might be able to make a follop up in this thread (help is always appreciated

)

Enmetena · 30th March 2015, 05:35 PM

Very interesting flintlock arquebuses from Poland (now in Sweden

). Looted on 30 August 1655 in Warsaw. They are described as haiduk guns. We know that when king John Casimir escaped Warsaw, he left behind one company of musketeers and 100 haiduks on garrison. As the city had almost no fortifications they soon surrender to swedish army. So it is quite possible that those guns are indeed haiduck ones.

They are very interesting as those are clearly soldier guns, not state of the art. Very early soldier guns with true flintlock (in fact I don't know any older army issued true flintlocks).

They are held in Livrustkammern - inventory numbers 3025 and 3026.

Both guns:

Locks close-up:

16th March 2014, 11:14 AM	#2
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Marcus, That's a very good job you did here! As this is very tricky matter literally requiring decades of experience, I'd like to add a few annotations here. When it comes to dating, though, one should discern whether the barrel or the lock mechanism is dated; otherwise a later lock could have been stocked re-using an earlier dated barrel. It is exactly this feeling that I get when looking at the latest instances posted here; while the lock of the gun dated 1709 is exactly ca. 1720-25 (for France), the one at the bottom, in a gun dated 'ca. 1720'), can, in my opinion, not be older than ca. 1730-40. We should also bear in mind that in the 17th and 18th century - the Baroque and Rococo periods - , France, and especially Paris, had the role of a vanguard in art style which all other countries adopted - with a certain delay, of course! During the 16th c., Italy was first to set up the Renaissance style. For example, if a French civilian flintlock mechanism is signed by a Paris maker and dated 1719, it will look exactly like a top style Bavarian civilian mechanism dated 1730, with its flat cock and banana shaped concave lower edge of the lock plate! On the other hand, there are many samples of Bavarian military flintlock muskets of the 1730's to ca. 1750 the locks of which look exactly as if they were made in Paris in ca. 1690 - with their big, rounded cocks, broad oval steels and banana shaped, concave lower edges of the lock plate!!! The flintlock mechanism of the heavy wall gun, ca. 1645, from the Schloss Dyck collection, then once in my possession and posted here, is so close in date to contemporary French locks because it was made near the French-German border! http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...l+schloss+dyck The same is true for the 1690's lock mechanism of the Bongarde style gun posted above: Bongarde worked in Düsseldorf, next to the Belgian-French influence! Apart from the regional influences on dating a gun, there is another variant to be considered: the age of the gun maker. E.g., when a gun is signed and dated, and we can trace back the life data of the maker, it will most probably be an old-style gun if the maker himself was an elderly man himself by the time he signed the piece! Best, Michael Last edited by Matchlock; 16th March 2014 at 11:37 AM.

16th March 2014, 11:46 AM	#3
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 534	Hi Fernando K and Michl, Thank you both for your kind post and compliment. You are both right to say that to make this time line more accurate, it would need also locks from other countries. As Michl pointed out, the early flintlocks where designed in France, Paris. During my research i found that there are many instances of flintlocks in other countries which would be dated older when looking at my study. Germany and the Netherlands seem to be adopting the styles the quickest, though with minor differences like the lack of the 'toe' (see the schloss Dyck lock). Hopefully in the near future i might be able to make a follop up in this thread (help is always appreciated ) Last edited by Marcus den toom; 16th March 2014 at 12:43 PM.

30th March 2015, 05:35 PM	#4
Enmetena Member Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 7	Very interesting flintlock arquebuses from Poland (now in Sweden ). Looted on 30 August 1655 in Warsaw. They are described as haiduk guns. We know that when king John Casimir escaped Warsaw, he left behind one company of musketeers and 100 haiduks on garrison. As the city had almost no fortifications they soon surrender to swedish army. So it is quite possible that those guns are indeed haiduck ones. They are very interesting as those are clearly soldier guns, not state of the art. Very early soldier guns with true flintlock (in fact I don't know any older army issued true flintlocks). They are held in Livrustkammern - inventory numbers 3025 and 3026. Both guns: Locks close-up: Attached Images

15th March 2014, 07:53 PM	#1
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 671	Hello, Marcus Excellent work, but would have to include the lock from another source, such as the English, Scottish, SPANISH, Portuguese, Italians, etc.. Also important the shooting method. Affectionately. Fernando k (Sorry for the translator)