Old keris Iron Vs modern keris

Pusaka · 13th November 2005, 01:30 PM

Ok I think I now understand the problem. Old keris are made with Iron with or without pamor but new keris are made with steel with or without pamor. The difference between Iron and steel is that steel has carbon added which strengthens the blade however it also increases the rate of rusting. Steel will rust much faster then Iron. The rate at which a material will rust will also affect the ability of the blade to keep an edge.
An example of this is when you shave you will notice that the razor blade gets blunt after about 2 or 3 shaves. It’s not your stubble which has caused the blade to get blunt but it’s the oxidisation (rusting) at the blade edge which causes it to become blunt and brittle, this is the major factor which causes razors to become blunt.
As I said before Iron rusts slower then steel so an Iron blade will keep its edge longer then a steel blade. The down side of this is that Iron is brittle and prone to fracturing whilst steel is not. If you were to put an old keris blade in a vice and apply pressure across the blade face it will simply snap because its made from Iron. If however you did the same to a modern keris blade it would flex and bend more before breaking because it’s made from steel.
The fact that keris blades were regularly oiled obviously would also protect it from rusting and thus help to keep the blade sharp.
Its only now that I realise that rate of rusting is the major factor in the ability of a blade to keep its edge that I realise why old keris tend to be sharper then steel keris.
The modern solution to this would be to make the blade from rust resistant steel so you would get the best of both worlds, the flexibility and strength of steel but a better blade edge then an Iron (old) keris.

Marto Suwigny your post was very informative and you established that there is such thing as black Iron and different grades of colours of Irons. I am guessing that the colour variation is caused by the presence of other minerals in the Iron ore, is that a good thing or a bad thing i.e. is pure Iron better?

nechesh · 13th November 2005, 02:40 PM

Actually, if you reread Marto's post you will see that he answered your last question:
"The grainy or fibrous nature of some types of old iron make a very rough surface especially if the blade been cleaned many times. Iron like this has open grain structure so it easy for substance applied to blade to penetrate below outer surface of the iron. Warangan will penetrate a little and give deeper etch, oil will also penetrate and sometime after old blade cleaned you can still smell the oil in the blade.Actually iron like this not good iron because it shows that the maker of the blade did not wash the iron of impurity before using it to make the keris. "
Also Marto wrote:
"Also is kelengan iron . This iron very black and have a very rough open grain . It is not good iron. "
Your logic on rusting perhaps makes some sense, though i'm not sure it would be correct to state that steel rusts "much" faster than iron. And i always thought sword makers moved into using steel not just because of increased strength, but also it's ability to hold a better edge than iron. But i could be wrong on that. Anyway, for many of us the regular oiling of our keris is not a thing of the past. I must say that i have been fortunate not to have seen any rust accumulate on any of my blades, new or old. Though it's a bit more work as the collection grows you just have to keep at it.

Pusaka · 13th November 2005, 03:09 PM

Since a sword blade is long it would make more sense to make it from steel because being a long blade it will flex more then a short keris blade and thus have more chance of breaking if it was Iron. I think that’s one of the main reasons why they moved to steel but I could be wrong.

marto suwignyo · 13th November 2005, 09:02 PM

Yes, the character of the keris has change from the time it first begin until now. At different time in different place the character of keris can be different. In Jawa the Englishman Raffles tell us that when he become governor of Jawa the keris already at that time is character of something that complete the dress of a man.But in the Pararaton already the keris is call the "symbol of manhood". Raffles in Jawa maybe 1812 to maybe 1818. The Pararaton is Majapahit time. But in Majapahit time and later the keris certainly a weapon.In Jawa in 19 and 20 century the keris not really a weapon. But in Majapahit and until now the keris not only a weapon but have other character too.

The true study of the keris not simple and not easy and not just give a name to pamor and dapur and tangguh.The true study of the keris we must to study Jawa history and culture and art and society. This very difficult because Jawa now not the same as Jawa in 12 century or 16 century or 18 century. Culture and society in Jawa change all the time, but with still the foundation culture. We can not just to study the keris if we want to understand the keris. We must to study all of everything that make Jawa.

Here I talk only Jawa, but the keris also in Bali and other place. How difficult to learn about the keris with true knowledge.

To understand the material that make a keris we must to understand also how to make keris. Keris blade have a thin piece of steel in the middle that become the cutting edge and the point. On the sides of the thin piece of steel the pamor . The pamor make from different kind of iron weld together or from iron and nikel or something with nikel in it weld together. Even with old keris the steel still in the middle of the blade. But not with keris Buda.

The difference of iron and steel that steel have carbon.The carbon in steel allow the steel to become hard when heat treat. This is make the steel red hot and then to make cold very quick by push into water or into oil. But when the steel get hard it also more easy to break so if the iron and pamor not on the outside of the blade the blade maybe break . When the steel get hard the iron not get hard . The iron still can bend after the heat treat so the iron protect the steel in the middle of the blade from break if the blade bend.But because the steel already hard it can more sharp and can more sharp for longer time.

Iron:- can not get hard, easy to bend, not easy to break, easy to weld.

Steel:- can get hard from heat treat, not easy to bend, easy to break, difficult to weld.

Steel can be bend too but to allow steel to bend and not to break some of the hard of the heat treat must be take away from the steel. Some of the hard of the steel can be take away by make the steel hot but not very hot and then to push into water or oil again. Hot until if the steel already polish bright, colour like blue and yellow can be see on the steel.But in Jawa with keris the empu not do this because maybe the steel in the keris only a little bit of carbon and not so easy to break and also the iron in the pamor protect the steel from break.

But if steel not heat treat and only stay soft, that steel too easy to bend like iron. The different is the heat treat that change the structure of the material.Not just if the material steel or iron.

But everything not really so simple like that, because some iron with impurity, but impurity not carbon also can easy to break and can difficult to weld.Because some iron have this impurity the empu must to wash the iron by weld many times until no impurity. This can know because when the iron hot enough to weld no spark come from iron when hit with hammer. This many times bend the iron and weld not only remove the impurity but also give the pattern like wos wutah to the iron. If the material that the empu fold and weld very different material the wos wutah pattern easy to see.

Many thing can make a sharp edge not sharp. Yes rust can make a sharp edge dull but also to use a blade with a sharp edge the blade will dull.If to cut a rope many times with a sharp knife not very long the sharp knife not sharp any more. If to cut fruit or tomat with sharp knife the blade will dull because the acid in the fruit.

Yes there is black iron and iron of many other colours, but we only can see that colour when the iron stain with arsenic. If the iron polish all iron the same : bright and shine.

I am sorry if some of my English is not too easy to understand. Already now I must think if I want to talk English or write English. If every day I can use English it is normal and easy, but if only sometimes I must stop and think. If something that I write is not clear please tell me and I will try again to make it clear.

Kiai Carita · 13th November 2005, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marto suwignyo

But everything not really so simple like that, because some iron with impurity, but impurity not carbon also can easy to break and can difficult to weld.Because some iron have this impurity the empu must to wash the iron by weld many times until no impurity. This can know because when the iron hot enough to weld no spark come from iron when hit with hammer. This many times bend the iron and weld not only remove the impurity but also give the pattern like wos wutah to the iron. If the material that the empu fold and weld very different material the wos wutah pattern easy to see.

Great post Marto Suwignyo ... however I think you might have missed out a step in the process. Please correct me if I am wrong.

In my understanding the Mpu does the wasuh process to clean the iron by heating and beating between the hammer and anvil and folding repeatedly until (s)he has a length of clean iron -mateng wasuhan- then (s)he sticks a strip of (also preprepared) pamor material which can be made from many different metal sources including meteorite.

This strip of two metals is then welded together and repeatedly folded. This process must be done carefully as the aim is to get many layers of the two metals without actually have them weld together completely and become like an aloy. When there are enough folds the Mpu cuts the strip in two, sandwiches the steel between the layers of iron and pamor iron, cuts a tip to use later as the ganja (optional), and begins the basic shape of the keris-to-be called the kodokan -froggy- because the rough shape of the pesi to-be looks a bit like a frog's tail -perhaps?

So the wasuh process does not actually make the pamor like beras wutah. Rather it is the welding of the iron and the pamor material which makes the pamor paterns. Before these are welded and folded they must first be put through the wasuh process to obtain the best quality blade. The technique of hammering is also different then the hammering in the wasuh process.

This is what I know, please correct me if I am wrong.

Warm Salaams to all,
KC.

marto suwignyo · 13th November 2005, 11:30 PM

What I write only is for rough outline of how iron is prepare. If iron that is weld together during wash process is different types like white iron and iron that stain more black then is pattern produce in iron that look like wos wutah. If all iron similar and no white iron then is produce pamor sanak.If all iron is same type iron then most time that iron when all clean has only grain like hair. After iron is prepare and the empu will to use nikel pamor material then the empu to continue with process like Kyai Carita tells.Material for gonjo is best to cut before steel is weld to the pamor.

13th November 2005, 01:30 PM	#1
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	Ok I think I now understand the problem. Old keris are made with Iron with or without pamor but new keris are made with steel with or without pamor. The difference between Iron and steel is that steel has carbon added which strengthens the blade however it also increases the rate of rusting. Steel will rust much faster then Iron. The rate at which a material will rust will also affect the ability of the blade to keep an edge. An example of this is when you shave you will notice that the razor blade gets blunt after about 2 or 3 shaves. It’s not your stubble which has caused the blade to get blunt but it’s the oxidisation (rusting) at the blade edge which causes it to become blunt and brittle, this is the major factor which causes razors to become blunt. As I said before Iron rusts slower then steel so an Iron blade will keep its edge longer then a steel blade. The down side of this is that Iron is brittle and prone to fracturing whilst steel is not. If you were to put an old keris blade in a vice and apply pressure across the blade face it will simply snap because its made from Iron. If however you did the same to a modern keris blade it would flex and bend more before breaking because it’s made from steel. The fact that keris blades were regularly oiled obviously would also protect it from rusting and thus help to keep the blade sharp. Its only now that I realise that rate of rusting is the major factor in the ability of a blade to keep its edge that I realise why old keris tend to be sharper then steel keris. The modern solution to this would be to make the blade from rust resistant steel so you would get the best of both worlds, the flexibility and strength of steel but a better blade edge then an Iron (old) keris. Marto Suwigny your post was very informative and you established that there is such thing as black Iron and different grades of colours of Irons. I am guessing that the colour variation is caused by the presence of other minerals in the Iron ore, is that a good thing or a bad thing i.e. is pure Iron better? Last edited by Pusaka; 13th November 2005 at 01:49 PM.

13th November 2005, 02:40 PM	#2
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Actually, if you reread Marto's post you will see that he answered your last question: "The grainy or fibrous nature of some types of old iron make a very rough surface especially if the blade been cleaned many times. Iron like this has open grain structure so it easy for substance applied to blade to penetrate below outer surface of the iron. Warangan will penetrate a little and give deeper etch, oil will also penetrate and sometime after old blade cleaned you can still smell the oil in the blade.Actually iron like this not good iron because it shows that the maker of the blade did not wash the iron of impurity before using it to make the keris. " Also Marto wrote: "Also is kelengan iron . This iron very black and have a very rough open grain . It is not good iron. " Your logic on rusting perhaps makes some sense, though i'm not sure it would be correct to state that steel rusts "much" faster than iron. And i always thought sword makers moved into using steel not just because of increased strength, but also it's ability to hold a better edge than iron. But i could be wrong on that. Anyway, for many of us the regular oiling of our keris is not a thing of the past. I must say that i have been fortunate not to have seen any rust accumulate on any of my blades, new or old. Though it's a bit more work as the collection grows you just have to keep at it.

13th November 2005, 03:09 PM	#3
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	Since a sword blade is long it would make more sense to make it from steel because being a long blade it will flex more then a short keris blade and thus have more chance of breaking if it was Iron. I think that’s one of the main reasons why they moved to steel but I could be wrong.

13th November 2005, 09:02 PM	#4
marto suwignyo Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 52	Yes, the character of the keris has change from the time it first begin until now. At different time in different place the character of keris can be different. In Jawa the Englishman Raffles tell us that when he become governor of Jawa the keris already at that time is character of something that complete the dress of a man.But in the Pararaton already the keris is call the "symbol of manhood". Raffles in Jawa maybe 1812 to maybe 1818. The Pararaton is Majapahit time. But in Majapahit time and later the keris certainly a weapon.In Jawa in 19 and 20 century the keris not really a weapon. But in Majapahit and until now the keris not only a weapon but have other character too. The true study of the keris not simple and not easy and not just give a name to pamor and dapur and tangguh.The true study of the keris we must to study Jawa history and culture and art and society. This very difficult because Jawa now not the same as Jawa in 12 century or 16 century or 18 century. Culture and society in Jawa change all the time, but with still the foundation culture. We can not just to study the keris if we want to understand the keris. We must to study all of everything that make Jawa. Here I talk only Jawa, but the keris also in Bali and other place. How difficult to learn about the keris with true knowledge. To understand the material that make a keris we must to understand also how to make keris. Keris blade have a thin piece of steel in the middle that become the cutting edge and the point. On the sides of the thin piece of steel the pamor . The pamor make from different kind of iron weld together or from iron and nikel or something with nikel in it weld together. Even with old keris the steel still in the middle of the blade. But not with keris Buda. The difference of iron and steel that steel have carbon.The carbon in steel allow the steel to become hard when heat treat. This is make the steel red hot and then to make cold very quick by push into water or into oil. But when the steel get hard it also more easy to break so if the iron and pamor not on the outside of the blade the blade maybe break . When the steel get hard the iron not get hard . The iron still can bend after the heat treat so the iron protect the steel in the middle of the blade from break if the blade bend.But because the steel already hard it can more sharp and can more sharp for longer time. Iron:- can not get hard, easy to bend, not easy to break, easy to weld. Steel:- can get hard from heat treat, not easy to bend, easy to break, difficult to weld. Steel can be bend too but to allow steel to bend and not to break some of the hard of the heat treat must be take away from the steel. Some of the hard of the steel can be take away by make the steel hot but not very hot and then to push into water or oil again. Hot until if the steel already polish bright, colour like blue and yellow can be see on the steel.But in Jawa with keris the empu not do this because maybe the steel in the keris only a little bit of carbon and not so easy to break and also the iron in the pamor protect the steel from break. But if steel not heat treat and only stay soft, that steel too easy to bend like iron. The different is the heat treat that change the structure of the material.Not just if the material steel or iron. But everything not really so simple like that, because some iron with impurity, but impurity not carbon also can easy to break and can difficult to weld.Because some iron have this impurity the empu must to wash the iron by weld many times until no impurity. This can know because when the iron hot enough to weld no spark come from iron when hit with hammer. This many times bend the iron and weld not only remove the impurity but also give the pattern like wos wutah to the iron. If the material that the empu fold and weld very different material the wos wutah pattern easy to see. Many thing can make a sharp edge not sharp. Yes rust can make a sharp edge dull but also to use a blade with a sharp edge the blade will dull.If to cut a rope many times with a sharp knife not very long the sharp knife not sharp any more. If to cut fruit or tomat with sharp knife the blade will dull because the acid in the fruit. Yes there is black iron and iron of many other colours, but we only can see that colour when the iron stain with arsenic. If the iron polish all iron the same : bright and shine. I am sorry if some of my English is not too easy to understand. Already now I must think if I want to talk English or write English. If every day I can use English it is normal and easy, but if only sometimes I must stop and think. If something that I write is not clear please tell me and I will try again to make it clear.

13th November 2005, 11:30 PM	#6
marto suwignyo Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 52	What I write only is for rough outline of how iron is prepare. If iron that is weld together during wash process is different types like white iron and iron that stain more black then is pattern produce in iron that look like wos wutah. If all iron similar and no white iron then is produce pamor sanak.If all iron is same type iron then most time that iron when all clean has only grain like hair. After iron is prepare and the empu will to use nikel pamor material then the empu to continue with process like Kyai Carita tells.Material for gonjo is best to cut before steel is weld to the pamor.