Unusual powder tester for comments

Matchlock · 27th February 2014, 08:02 PM

Hi Nando,

Though maybe not as explicitly as I had been hoping, I did try to meet your point in my reply. Please do forgive my obvious headiness, my dear friend!

Seen from the standpoint of an art historian, the (Neo-)Gothic style of the straight, plain handle perfectly corresponds to the 19th c. philosophy of 're-enlivening' the old Gothic style, and is clearly recognizable to me in this object.
Sadly I cannot tell how it was actually ignited, either, as I have never handled such an item (it's just way too 'young' to startle a true Gothic and Renaissance freak like me).
I am positive though that some of our members can. In any case, the ignition must have been very easy to achieve.

Best wishes,
Michl

Marcus den toom · 27th February 2014, 08:51 PM

I tried to find similair examples on the web.. acording to the authors on these web pages this kind of powder tester was also in use in the 18th century, but the style differs from Fernando's powder tester and the truthfullness about these claims might be clouded by the sellers "ambition"
I did find a nice website though (pitt rivers museum).

http://web.prm.ox.ac.uk/weapons/inde...359/index.html

http://merzantiques.com/item/very-unusual-powder-tester ( http://www.icollector.com/17th-centu...ture_i11291595 )

http://www.icollector.com/Early-powd...rule_i11291691

Matchlock · 27th February 2014, 08:59 PM

Thanks a lot, Marcus,

For searching (and finding!) this excellent material!

Could you please post here on the forum the respective images and descriptions in the links you found? I am requesting this considering the fact that many links tend to vanish from the web each day, so we would all be glad to find the material documented here.

Thanks again, and best wishes,
Michael

Marcus den toom · 27th February 2014, 09:07 PM

My pleasure

And as requested:

"This device for testing gunpowder was made in Avignon, France and dates to the 17th or early 18th century.

The amount of powder charge needed to pour down the muzzle of a gun depended on the strength of the powder, as well as the barrel length and bullet size. Testers tended to use the same mechanisms as the guns of the day, so this example with a nicely turned-wood handle and iron ratchet wheel, probably dates to the wheel-lock era. Samples of powder were ignited in the touch-hole and forced the wheel to rotate by means of a spring. Originally the wheel would have been marked with graduations from which the strength of the powder could be calculated."

"In the shape of some sort of mythological peacock/serpent standing on four feet. Bird's head on one end and a turned wood grip on the other. Very nice item marked "H K C". Graduated wheel is marked from 0-25. Very decorative piece. Well made and in excellent condition with a nice aged brass patina coloration."
The auction discription:
"17th century style cast-brass body powder tester with turned wood grip of 20th century manufacture, signed by Coulter “HKC / 12-67”. Measures 13” from end to end. Made with a high degree of quality and precision andshows good aging. Keith Coulter was an excellent craftsman and he did work only for his own purposes, not for resale or forgery. From the Keith Coulter collection"

"Early powder tester circa 1700 – 1750. 10-1/4” overall, 4-1/2” turned wood grip with brass ferrule connected to a straight steel platform with graduated wheel showing hand-engraved numbers and tension spring.With touch hole cover. Very good condition, normal aging, small chip to the grip. Similar to example pictured in Eprouvettes by Kempers, page 92. From the Keith Coulter collection"

Matchlock · 27th February 2014, 09:12 PM

Perfectly done, thank you for your kindness!

I profoundly disagree with the early dates obviously assigned by dealers to the objects; to me they are all 1st half to mid-19th c.

Best,
m

fernando · 27th February 2014, 10:27 PM

Very good and fast input, Marcus. Thank you for bringing in 'non pistol' style examples

.
Certainly PittRivers and the 'ambitious' seller of the other example are claiming wrong dating.
... and the sexy 17th "style" four legged one might even be a 20th century replica ... or contemporary imagination

.
I wonder if both PittRivers and the Commercial site are making some confusion with the touchole issue ... or is it me ? One thing is the little 'hole' in the base where you submit the ignition and the other thing is the 'deposit' where you fill the powder to be tested ... sorry the funny lexicon. It seems as they are calling touchole the late part.
Obviously i might be wrong; my knowledge is very superficial. Correct me if i am wrong

.

.

Marcus den toom · 28th February 2014, 08:21 AM

Hi Fernando,

I must appologize for the lack of other pictures which gives also a view of the other side of the powder testers (with touch hole).
The bronze 4 legged one and the third one from post #7 where both made by the collector Keith Coulter, who according to the auction website who sold these items before, made these powder testers for his own collection and not for fraudulent purposes. Thus these are modern replicas, most likely using multiple styles? (confusing

)

Here are the pictures from the touch hole side, notice the second powder tester of this post. It has a spring next to the powder 'deposit', i wonder what this might do.

Matchlock · 1st March 2014, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

I wonder if both PittRivers and the Commercial site are making some confusion with the touchole issue ... or is it me ? One thing is the little 'hole' in the base where you submit the ignition and the other thing is the 'deposit' where you fill the powder to be tested ... sorry the funny lexicon. It seems as they are calling touchole the late part.
.

Hi Nando,

Not being in the least familiar with these objects, I have been wondering ever since you asked this question in post #9.

I guess you must be right: the small external trough marked by you must have been an igniting pan for priming powder, probably lit by a glowing pinewood chip always kept ready in any average home (German: Kienspan). This then lead to the explosion of the testing powder.

Best,
m

27th February 2014, 10:27 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Very good and fast input, Marcus. Thank you for bringing in 'non pistol' style examples . Certainly PittRivers and the 'ambitious' seller of the other example are claiming wrong dating. ... and the sexy 17th "style" four legged one might even be a 20th century replica ... or contemporary imagination . I wonder if both PittRivers and the Commercial site are making some confusion with the touchole issue ... or is it me ? One thing is the little 'hole' in the base where you submit the ignition and the other thing is the 'deposit' where you fill the powder to be tested ... sorry the funny lexicon. It seems as they are calling touchole the late part. Obviously i might be wrong; my knowledge is very superficial. Correct me if i am wrong . . Attached Images

27th February 2014, 08:02 PM	#1
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Nando, Though maybe not as explicitly as I had been hoping, I did try to meet your point in my reply. Please do forgive my obvious headiness, my dear friend! Seen from the standpoint of an art historian, the (Neo-)Gothic style of the straight, plain handle perfectly corresponds to the 19th c. philosophy of 're-enlivening' the old Gothic style, and is clearly recognizable to me in this object. Sadly I cannot tell how it was actually ignited, either, as I have never handled such an item (it's just way too 'young' to startle a true Gothic and Renaissance freak like me). I am positive though that some of our members can. In any case, the ignition must have been very easy to achieve. Best wishes, Michl

27th February 2014, 08:51 PM	#2
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 535	I tried to find similair examples on the web.. acording to the authors on these web pages this kind of powder tester was also in use in the 18th century, but the style differs from Fernando's powder tester and the truthfullness about these claims might be clouded by the sellers "ambition" I did find a nice website though (pitt rivers museum). http://web.prm.ox.ac.uk/weapons/inde...359/index.html http://merzantiques.com/item/very-unusual-powder-tester ( http://www.icollector.com/17th-centu...ture_i11291595 ) http://www.icollector.com/Early-powd...rule_i11291691

27th February 2014, 08:59 PM	#3
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Thanks a lot, Marcus, For searching (and finding!) this excellent material! Could you please post here on the forum the respective images and descriptions in the links you found? I am requesting this considering the fact that many links tend to vanish from the web each day, so we would all be glad to find the material documented here. Thanks again, and best wishes, Michael

27th February 2014, 09:07 PM	#4
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 535	My pleasure And as requested: "This device for testing gunpowder was made in Avignon, France and dates to the 17th or early 18th century. The amount of powder charge needed to pour down the muzzle of a gun depended on the strength of the powder, as well as the barrel length and bullet size. Testers tended to use the same mechanisms as the guns of the day, so this example with a nicely turned-wood handle and iron ratchet wheel, probably dates to the wheel-lock era. Samples of powder were ignited in the touch-hole and forced the wheel to rotate by means of a spring. Originally the wheel would have been marked with graduations from which the strength of the powder could be calculated." "In the shape of some sort of mythological peacock/serpent standing on four feet. Bird's head on one end and a turned wood grip on the other. Very nice item marked "H K C". Graduated wheel is marked from 0-25. Very decorative piece. Well made and in excellent condition with a nice aged brass patina coloration." The auction discription: "17th century style cast-brass body powder tester with turned wood grip of 20th century manufacture, signed by Coulter “HKC / 12-67”. Measures 13” from end to end. Made with a high degree of quality and precision andshows good aging. Keith Coulter was an excellent craftsman and he did work only for his own purposes, not for resale or forgery. From the Keith Coulter collection" "Early powder tester circa 1700 – 1750. 10-1/4” overall, 4-1/2” turned wood grip with brass ferrule connected to a straight steel platform with graduated wheel showing hand-engraved numbers and tension spring.With touch hole cover. Very good condition, normal aging, small chip to the grip. Similar to example pictured in Eprouvettes by Kempers, page 92. From the Keith Coulter collection"

27th February 2014, 09:12 PM	#5
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Perfectly done, thank you for your kindness! I profoundly disagree with the early dates obviously assigned by dealers to the objects; to me they are all 1st half to mid-19th c. Best, m

28th February 2014, 08:21 AM	#7
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 535	Hi Fernando, I must appologize for the lack of other pictures which gives also a view of the other side of the powder testers (with touch hole). The bronze 4 legged one and the third one from post #7 where both made by the collector Keith Coulter, who according to the auction website who sold these items before, made these powder testers for his own collection and not for fraudulent purposes. Thus these are modern replicas, most likely using multiple styles? (confusing ) Here are the pictures from the touch hole side, notice the second powder tester of this post. It has a spring next to the powder 'deposit', i wonder what this might do.