Tulwar stamped blade mark question

Jim McDougall · 22nd February 2014, 08:43 PM

Outstanding Rick!!! Thank you!
These perfectly illustrate the apparently key location that these marks were often, or perhaps consistently, placed. Matt, note the paired linear groupings and the fullers of that one blade, similar to the single line of these 'twigs' on yours. It is known that various Italian blades used various numbers of these marks in varying configuration , and with the import of many 'firangi' blades into India, the copying of these as indicators of imbued quality was inevitable.
The case of the odd, stippled script in the bottom example are of course the Bikaner armoury type markings, lending support to that type of capacity for these marks in that position.

Turning once again to the placement of certain marks on blades in a more temporal sense, it seems that on many blades in India, certain marks (such as trimurti) are found placed at strategic blade locations such as choil, near point, and others perhaps point of percussion etc. This of course also remains unproven, but intriguing in its apparent deliberate instances.

Rick · 22nd February 2014, 10:47 PM

I suspect that out of all the marks I have; the first one shown would most likely be an actual maker's mark .

It looks like a half-strike however .

Rumpel · 15th May 2016, 09:02 PM

Reviving an old thread...

I was cleaning my very unspectacular munitions-grade tulwar and noticed a stamped mark under the langet I hadn't seen before (because I was too lazy too clean under there

).

Both the marks look rather like the numeral '3', one in European numerals, the other in Arabic/Hindi/Persian- only with both, neither are quite right, the one approximating the eastern 3 being backwards.

Any ideas? I've checked the forum and can only find 'eyelash' and 'kata' stamps, admittedly on superior blades.

Jim McDougall · 16th May 2016, 01:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rumpel

Reviving an old thread...

I was cleaning my very unspectacular munitions-grade tulwar and noticed a stamped mark under the langet I hadn't seen before (because I was too lazy too clean under there

).

Both the marks look rather like the numeral '3', one in European numerals, the other in Arabic/Hindi/Persian- only with both, neither are quite right, the one approximating the eastern 3 being backwards.

Any ideas? I've checked the forum and can only find 'eyelash' and 'kata' stamps, admittedly on superior blades.

Rumpel, thank you for reviving this old thread! and especially for taking an interest in these markings. It seems there is not nearly quite enough known on these Indian markings, and presently we have some good threads going on both guns and swords of India.

Thank you also for the great pics and the panel of script characters to use in analyzing these markings.

First I would note to any readers who go back to cover this full thread, the linear 'crosses' in the original post in my opinion may be native interpretation of the Italian 'marca mosca' marks (often termed mill rind or twig in European parlance).
These occurred in many variations in the mark groupings and configurations on Italian blades, which of course were widely copied by native armourers and trade entrepots.

In post number 14, the stippled numbers on that tulwar blade are for Bikaner armoury in Rajasthan, and possibly Punjabi script letters.

It seems possible these two stamps on your blade may be from the Gurmukhi script used in the Punjab and by Sikhs.
The placement seems to align with the year date letters and inspection stamps used by the EIC but later possibly in some degree with EIG (East India Government).

These are simply speculations until we can find a good match in one of the many dialects throughout India.

Thanks again! Well posted!

Rumpel · 17th May 2016, 10:49 PM

Thank you so much Jim, stupidly I hadn't even considered non-Indo-Persian alphanumeric systems.

Gurmurkhi looks the closest match so far.

Many thanks again.

Jim McDougall · 18th May 2016, 01:06 AM

Not at all Rumpel!!!
If I could even remotely estimate how many things completely go past me, and I've been at this stuff a couple of years or so

There are so many dialects and languages in India's subcontinent and of course the influences of many outside sources it is a real challenge to tackle many of these markings.
I agree that Gurkmukhi is a good fit, and a Punjab oriented script which was most notably associated with Sikhs. This example may well be associated with Sikh arsenal stamps or other numeric significance which I would defer to those most knowledgeable on those topics.

Rumpel · 18th May 2016, 03:41 AM

I suppose the thing is that- unlike kaskaras, say, where a bring-back date is often going to be very late 19th c- for UK collectors tulwars could have come from almost anywhere in N India, at almost any time, with very little info to help us sort out the fine details.

I assume most old tulwars in western collections have radiated out from the UK, of course.

15th May 2016, 09:02 PM	#3
Rumpel Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 63	Reviving an old thread... I was cleaning my very unspectacular munitions-grade tulwar and noticed a stamped mark under the langet I hadn't seen before (because I was too lazy too clean under there ). Both the marks look rather like the numeral '3', one in European numerals, the other in Arabic/Hindi/Persian- only with both, neither are quite right, the one approximating the eastern 3 being backwards. Any ideas? I've checked the forum and can only find 'eyelash' and 'kata' stamps, admittedly on superior blades. Attached Images

17th May 2016, 10:49 PM	#5
Rumpel Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 63	Thank you so much Jim, stupidly I hadn't even considered non-Indo-Persian alphanumeric systems. Gurmurkhi looks the closest match so far. Many thanks again. Attached Images

22nd February 2014, 08:43 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,195	Outstanding Rick!!! Thank you! These perfectly illustrate the apparently key location that these marks were often, or perhaps consistently, placed. Matt, note the paired linear groupings and the fullers of that one blade, similar to the single line of these 'twigs' on yours. It is known that various Italian blades used various numbers of these marks in varying configuration , and with the import of many 'firangi' blades into India, the copying of these as indicators of imbued quality was inevitable. The case of the odd, stippled script in the bottom example are of course the Bikaner armoury type markings, lending support to that type of capacity for these marks in that position. Turning once again to the placement of certain marks on blades in a more temporal sense, it seems that on many blades in India, certain marks (such as trimurti) are found placed at strategic blade locations such as choil, near point, and others perhaps point of percussion etc. This of course also remains unproven, but intriguing in its apparent deliberate instances.

22nd February 2014, 10:47 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	I suspect that out of all the marks I have; the first one shown would most likely be an actual maker's mark . It looks like a half-strike however .

18th May 2016, 01:06 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,195	Not at all Rumpel!!! If I could even remotely estimate how many things completely go past me, and I've been at this stuff a couple of years or so There are so many dialects and languages in India's subcontinent and of course the influences of many outside sources it is a real challenge to tackle many of these markings. I agree that Gurkmukhi is a good fit, and a Punjab oriented script which was most notably associated with Sikhs. This example may well be associated with Sikh arsenal stamps or other numeric significance which I would defer to those most knowledgeable on those topics.

18th May 2016, 03:41 AM	#7
Rumpel Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 63	I suppose the thing is that- unlike kaskaras, say, where a bring-back date is often going to be very late 19th c- for UK collectors tulwars could have come from almost anywhere in N India, at almost any time, with very little info to help us sort out the fine details. I assume most old tulwars in western collections have radiated out from the UK, of course.