swords of Mohammed, but what about...

ariel · 4th January 2005, 02:06 PM

With all due respect, the attribution of any of those swords to King David (i.e 7th-8th century BCE!) is the most ridiculous of all. I would challenge anyone to produce another iron implement from that era that managed to be preserved in such an intact shape and to be executed in a style of 10th-13th century CE!
I have deep respect for people's religious beliefs, but the tendency to bolster their claims for authenticity by producing clear fakes has nothing to do with ethics, philosophy and law(that in fact comprise the definition of religion). This is pure snake oil and brings only dishonor and ridicule.
As a matter of fact, we already had this discussion and Yannis brought a beautiful link to the pictures of the Swords of the Profet.
See for yourself.
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001968.html
I fully appreciate the danger of converting this debate into something very ugly. I trust that all of us (I can vouch for myself) are motivated by purely academic and factual motives. Anybody's religious beliefs are his/her (you see, I am politically correct) private business and should be fully respected; validity of historical and material artefacts is a part of public domain and can be vigorously discussed.

Mark · 4th January 2005, 02:28 PM

I am drifting from the thread here, but I can't resist on commenting on something I actually know a little about.

One of the "Spear(s) of Destiny" (naturally there is more than one around) was found during the first Crusade (1098 AD) during the siege of Antioch. They Crusaders were bogged down, exhausted, hungry and diseased and everyone just wanted to go home. A monk, whose name I forget, had a dream wherein the location of the Spear of Destiny was revealed to him. They dug at the site, and found a rusted hunk of metal. This inspired the Crusaders, who proceeded to do their worst to the city. Other candidated were bought in the booming relic trade in the Levant, and brought back to Europe (they say that if all the finger bones of the Virgin Mary were genuine she would have had like 20 fingers). As for more recent history, I hadn't heard that it had been taken to Nurenburg, though I know that Hitler was keen on finding it, as he was of many esoteric items of purported spiritual power.

The True Cross, at least the biggest hunk of it, was in Jerusalem until its conquest by Saladin. Queen Helena (Constantine's Christian mother) has found it during a trip to the Holy Land to find holy sites and relics. Saladin had it taken to ... um ... I forget. Damascus or Bagdad. I think he had been the Emir of Aleppo so maybe it was there. Anyway, it was made into the stoop of a mosque so that pious Muslims would be able to step over it every time they went to pray, to show the supremacy of Islam over Christianity. It was later destroyed apparently. There are lots of supposed slivers of it all over Europe.

Rivkin · 4th January 2005, 03:54 PM

Well, the Spear of Destiny was a treasure of the Holy Roman Empire of German Nation. It was recently analyzed, and under many layers of silver and gold happened to be a typical II century AD roman spear point. There are a lot of objections out there to such attributing of this spear, so I'm sure one can find something using google. Btw, the first objection against this relic, as well as many others was made by Martin Luther.

Concerning the swords of David - it's hard to believe that the man who is not survived by a single stone (his tomb is as controvercial as the borders of Israel during his reign) can be survived by 2 swords, in such a great condition. Well, there are actually two stones people attribute to his reign, but that's it.

The reason for multitudes of davidian items appearing in islamic countries is more related to the desire to have a connection to David and other "islamic" prophets of old, and the desire to be seen as "true" continuation of old beliefs.

Rehilting is a catastrophe, for the hilt is the only thing made from organics (wood) - proper dating now is impossible.

4th January 2005, 02:06 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	With all due respect, the attribution of any of those swords to King David (i.e 7th-8th century BCE!) is the most ridiculous of all. I would challenge anyone to produce another iron implement from that era that managed to be preserved in such an intact shape and to be executed in a style of 10th-13th century CE! I have deep respect for people's religious beliefs, but the tendency to bolster their claims for authenticity by producing clear fakes has nothing to do with ethics, philosophy and law(that in fact comprise the definition of religion). This is pure snake oil and brings only dishonor and ridicule. As a matter of fact, we already had this discussion and Yannis brought a beautiful link to the pictures of the Swords of the Profet. See for yourself. http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001968.html I fully appreciate the danger of converting this debate into something very ugly. I trust that all of us (I can vouch for myself) are motivated by purely academic and factual motives. Anybody's religious beliefs are his/her (you see, I am politically correct) private business and should be fully respected; validity of historical and material artefacts is a part of public domain and can be vigorously discussed. Last edited by ariel; 4th January 2005 at 02:26 PM. Reason: reference

4th January 2005, 02:28 PM	#2
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	I am drifting from the thread here, but I can't resist on commenting on something I actually know a little about. One of the "Spear(s) of Destiny" (naturally there is more than one around) was found during the first Crusade (1098 AD) during the siege of Antioch. They Crusaders were bogged down, exhausted, hungry and diseased and everyone just wanted to go home. A monk, whose name I forget, had a dream wherein the location of the Spear of Destiny was revealed to him. They dug at the site, and found a rusted hunk of metal. This inspired the Crusaders, who proceeded to do their worst to the city. Other candidated were bought in the booming relic trade in the Levant, and brought back to Europe (they say that if all the finger bones of the Virgin Mary were genuine she would have had like 20 fingers). As for more recent history, I hadn't heard that it had been taken to Nurenburg, though I know that Hitler was keen on finding it, as he was of many esoteric items of purported spiritual power. The True Cross, at least the biggest hunk of it, was in Jerusalem until its conquest by Saladin. Queen Helena (Constantine's Christian mother) has found it during a trip to the Holy Land to find holy sites and relics. Saladin had it taken to ... um ... I forget. Damascus or Bagdad. I think he had been the Emir of Aleppo so maybe it was there. Anyway, it was made into the stoop of a mosque so that pious Muslims would be able to step over it every time they went to pray, to show the supremacy of Islam over Christianity. It was later destroyed apparently. There are lots of supposed slivers of it all over Europe.

4th January 2005, 03:54 PM	#3
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Well, the Spear of Destiny was a treasure of the Holy Roman Empire of German Nation. It was recently analyzed, and under many layers of silver and gold happened to be a typical II century AD roman spear point. There are a lot of objections out there to such attributing of this spear, so I'm sure one can find something using google. Btw, the first objection against this relic, as well as many others was made by Martin Luther. Concerning the swords of David - it's hard to believe that the man who is not survived by a single stone (his tomb is as controvercial as the borders of Israel during his reign) can be survived by 2 swords, in such a great condition. Well, there are actually two stones people attribute to his reign, but that's it. The reason for multitudes of davidian items appearing in islamic countries is more related to the desire to have a connection to David and other "islamic" prophets of old, and the desire to be seen as "true" continuation of old beliefs. Rehilting is a catastrophe, for the hilt is the only thing made from organics (wood) - proper dating now is impossible.