Tulwar stamped blade mark question

Matt Easton · 22nd February 2014, 07:45 AM

Thanks Jim.
Yes I think the imitation of European marks may well have led to these crosses, just as with the eyelash marks so often seen.

What do you make of marks like this though, lifted from Archer's pulsar thread? I have similar stamps on tulwar blades -

Jim McDougall · 22nd February 2014, 04:57 PM

Hi Matt,
You have, in borrowing a well used phrase, 'awakened a sleeping giant', as the conundrum of so many markings and devices on arms of the subcontinent remains unsolved. We can of course speculate with some reasonable accuracy on many, such as the 'sickle' and these 'twig' type marks and a few others
This marking on the tulwar you show is in much the same blade quadrant as many stamped cartouches on these North Indian examples. If I recall, these are often a squared cartouche enclosing typically Urdu characters. Since these are often in the same location adjacent to the langet near the ricasso it may be of course some type of arsenal or acceptance stamp. In a similar instance an Algerian 'nimcha' (Briggs, 1965) illustrates a round cartouche with Arabic characters in similar location near blade edge, and that is presumed again some sort of acceptance or approval mark.

Another possibility is that marks in these locations on Islamic blades may have some sort of talismanic purpose, such as with the well known ' beduh' squares with numeric symbolism. In any case, the mark on your example here is virtually indiscernible, but seems to have the remains of serrated edge. The only European marks similar are the dentated half arcs of the 'sickles' but as far as I know these were never applied in this blade location. By the same token, the pierced langet seen here is typically on the tulwars farther north, particularly Sind, in that case Talpur, but again speculation. Afghan paluoars almost typically have spurious sickle marks on the blade at the near center of the blades length as seen on yours, but whether this curious mark near the blade root is related remains unclear.

Whatever the case it would be interesting to get a better image of the mark, whether in better light or even a sketch delineating the key points of the device. Every marking has the potential of being either a prototype or important anomaly.

All the best,
Jim

Rick · 22nd February 2014, 06:25 PM

Here are examples from Indian swords that I have in hand .

Jim McDougall · 22nd February 2014, 08:43 PM

Outstanding Rick!!! Thank you!
These perfectly illustrate the apparently key location that these marks were often, or perhaps consistently, placed. Matt, note the paired linear groupings and the fullers of that one blade, similar to the single line of these 'twigs' on yours. It is known that various Italian blades used various numbers of these marks in varying configuration , and with the import of many 'firangi' blades into India, the copying of these as indicators of imbued quality was inevitable.
The case of the odd, stippled script in the bottom example are of course the Bikaner armoury type markings, lending support to that type of capacity for these marks in that position.

Turning once again to the placement of certain marks on blades in a more temporal sense, it seems that on many blades in India, certain marks (such as trimurti) are found placed at strategic blade locations such as choil, near point, and others perhaps point of percussion etc. This of course also remains unproven, but intriguing in its apparent deliberate instances.

Rick · 22nd February 2014, 10:47 PM

I suspect that out of all the marks I have; the first one shown would most likely be an actual maker's mark .

It looks like a half-strike however .

Rumpel · 15th May 2016, 09:02 PM

Reviving an old thread...

I was cleaning my very unspectacular munitions-grade tulwar and noticed a stamped mark under the langet I hadn't seen before (because I was too lazy too clean under there

).

Both the marks look rather like the numeral '3', one in European numerals, the other in Arabic/Hindi/Persian- only with both, neither are quite right, the one approximating the eastern 3 being backwards.

Any ideas? I've checked the forum and can only find 'eyelash' and 'kata' stamps, admittedly on superior blades.

Jim McDougall · 16th May 2016, 01:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rumpel

Reviving an old thread...

I was cleaning my very unspectacular munitions-grade tulwar and noticed a stamped mark under the langet I hadn't seen before (because I was too lazy too clean under there

).

Both the marks look rather like the numeral '3', one in European numerals, the other in Arabic/Hindi/Persian- only with both, neither are quite right, the one approximating the eastern 3 being backwards.

Any ideas? I've checked the forum and can only find 'eyelash' and 'kata' stamps, admittedly on superior blades.

Rumpel, thank you for reviving this old thread! and especially for taking an interest in these markings. It seems there is not nearly quite enough known on these Indian markings, and presently we have some good threads going on both guns and swords of India.

Thank you also for the great pics and the panel of script characters to use in analyzing these markings.

First I would note to any readers who go back to cover this full thread, the linear 'crosses' in the original post in my opinion may be native interpretation of the Italian 'marca mosca' marks (often termed mill rind or twig in European parlance).
These occurred in many variations in the mark groupings and configurations on Italian blades, which of course were widely copied by native armourers and trade entrepots.

In post number 14, the stippled numbers on that tulwar blade are for Bikaner armoury in Rajasthan, and possibly Punjabi script letters.

It seems possible these two stamps on your blade may be from the Gurmukhi script used in the Punjab and by Sikhs.
The placement seems to align with the year date letters and inspection stamps used by the EIC but later possibly in some degree with EIG (East India Government).

These are simply speculations until we can find a good match in one of the many dialects throughout India.

Thanks again! Well posted!

22nd February 2014, 04:57 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Hi Matt, You have, in borrowing a well used phrase, 'awakened a sleeping giant', as the conundrum of so many markings and devices on arms of the subcontinent remains unsolved. We can of course speculate with some reasonable accuracy on many, such as the 'sickle' and these 'twig' type marks and a few others This marking on the tulwar you show is in much the same blade quadrant as many stamped cartouches on these North Indian examples. If I recall, these are often a squared cartouche enclosing typically Urdu characters. Since these are often in the same location adjacent to the langet near the ricasso it may be of course some type of arsenal or acceptance stamp. In a similar instance an Algerian 'nimcha' (Briggs, 1965) illustrates a round cartouche with Arabic characters in similar location near blade edge, and that is presumed again some sort of acceptance or approval mark. Another possibility is that marks in these locations on Islamic blades may have some sort of talismanic purpose, such as with the well known ' beduh' squares with numeric symbolism. In any case, the mark on your example here is virtually indiscernible, but seems to have the remains of serrated edge. The only European marks similar are the dentated half arcs of the 'sickles' but as far as I know these were never applied in this blade location. By the same token, the pierced langet seen here is typically on the tulwars farther north, particularly Sind, in that case Talpur, but again speculation. Afghan paluoars almost typically have spurious sickle marks on the blade at the near center of the blades length as seen on yours, but whether this curious mark near the blade root is related remains unclear. Whatever the case it would be interesting to get a better image of the mark, whether in better light or even a sketch delineating the key points of the device. Every marking has the potential of being either a prototype or important anomaly. All the best, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 22nd February 2014 at 05:13 PM.

22nd February 2014, 06:25 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Marks Here are examples from Indian swords that I have in hand . Attached Images

15th May 2016, 09:02 PM	#6
Rumpel Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 63	Reviving an old thread... I was cleaning my very unspectacular munitions-grade tulwar and noticed a stamped mark under the langet I hadn't seen before (because I was too lazy too clean under there ). Both the marks look rather like the numeral '3', one in European numerals, the other in Arabic/Hindi/Persian- only with both, neither are quite right, the one approximating the eastern 3 being backwards. Any ideas? I've checked the forum and can only find 'eyelash' and 'kata' stamps, admittedly on superior blades. Attached Images

22nd February 2014, 07:45 AM	#1
Matt Easton Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Surrey, Great Britain. Posts: 53	Thanks Jim. Yes I think the imitation of European marks may well have led to these crosses, just as with the eyelash marks so often seen. What do you make of marks like this though, lifted from Archer's pulsar thread? I have similar stamps on tulwar blades -

22nd February 2014, 08:43 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Outstanding Rick!!! Thank you! These perfectly illustrate the apparently key location that these marks were often, or perhaps consistently, placed. Matt, note the paired linear groupings and the fullers of that one blade, similar to the single line of these 'twigs' on yours. It is known that various Italian blades used various numbers of these marks in varying configuration , and with the import of many 'firangi' blades into India, the copying of these as indicators of imbued quality was inevitable. The case of the odd, stippled script in the bottom example are of course the Bikaner armoury type markings, lending support to that type of capacity for these marks in that position. Turning once again to the placement of certain marks on blades in a more temporal sense, it seems that on many blades in India, certain marks (such as trimurti) are found placed at strategic blade locations such as choil, near point, and others perhaps point of percussion etc. This of course also remains unproven, but intriguing in its apparent deliberate instances.

22nd February 2014, 10:47 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	I suspect that out of all the marks I have; the first one shown would most likely be an actual maker's mark . It looks like a half-strike however .