The Fire, the Queen and the Cutlass

[CutlassCollector]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

CC, you have asked the very question that has been puzzling me for these past years. If you remember in a previous thread, I mentioned that my M1804 has block letter GR under crown, but not like the spurious mark of the S&K German swords, as shown in Gilkerson. The GR on mine near exact to the m1814 Brit cutlass with block letter GR. I further mentioned an early cast iron ribbed grip cutlass with straight blade and sheet guard with a very worn VR under crown marking. This sword's mark is so worn that only a slight portion of the V visible, leading me to wonder if it were a later (and weaker) stamp of a sword put back into service in its working life. You have asked that fundamental question that I've hoped others might be able to answer, as I have only guesses. I remembered reading of the destruction of many of the older models in the Tower fire and likewise suspected that some of the existing earlier models might have been issued to naval ships. As this would have been after the Age of Fighting Sail, they would have more or less been for emergency use and just sat in a rack, awaiting the need. So many questions remain, even if we can determine that the marks aren't spurious, which they still might be (notice I said spurious and not fake! S&K marked thier swords to inspire buyers that theirs was a mark of quality. Were there other makers at the time perhaps doing the same with similar marks? VR marks? Were these reused in the Royal Navy? As surplus on merchants? As exports? Certainly, British swords were being shipped out to India, Africa, etc, at the time. Until someone can document the markings that appeared on Kirshbaum swords with clarity, we can't even rule them out as the producers of said swords. Anyway, just my two cents. Hopefully, someone else might come in on this one? Anybody?

Hi Mark, yes I do remember that thread regarding thinreadline's machetes with VR and GR markings. Although we have evidence from catalogues that GR in block form was used by Solingen manufacturers and we know it was also used in that form as a ordnance mark we don't have the same for VR and I hope this thread may throw up a few more pictures of cyphers for comparison. The VR crown is different on the cutlass and machete.

Is the VR marking on your cutlass too faded to photograph, would the private purchase mark show up as well?
CC

[M ELEY]

Hello CC,
I see your point exactly now that you have pulled up that old thread (I couldn't find it earlier). Thanks for that. Yes, the VR is perplexing. In several Fagan & Company military catalogs over the past decade, they have had privateer-type cutlass, with the ribbed iron grips and sheet iron guards, obviously of the period, marked (according to the description, unfortunately pics of sword way too small) with VR/crown. I have no doubt that they were not fake, tourist or remade items. Thus, if we rule out fraud, the path goes back to spurious Solingen pieces made for the privateer/merchant/export trade or real items put into service by the British navy.
Concerning my example, the marking is so barely legible, that it wouldn't help in identification. The R is badly rubbed, but visible, as is the top right-hand corner of the V. The crown is illegible save for the bottom ridge. Looking at where the corner of the V meets the mid-portion of the crown, the mark was probably just like the one on yours, being that it might have been the WR type, reduced to VR where the V doesn't quite sit well under the crown, if you catch my drift.
A few more points, for what they are worth. Of the above examples featured in the auction catalogs, some of the cutlass mentioned were only marked with a RN? Royal Navy? Does anyone know of this marking? Proof of spurious stamp?
CC, do you have Annis' "Naval Swords"? If so, you will note the sword on pg.61, #42 'British Hanger cum Cutlass'. It is marked in the block letter GR/crown as well as having the WIDC marking, for West India Dock Company. This associated naval piece got me wondering if other, quasi-branches of the naval dept. might have had markings on their swords, or for that matter, if overseas colonial Brit pieces might have had such block-letter markings? Would a Brit coast-guard station have been issued older pattern swords with said markings in the advent of the shortage? Just thinking aloud...

[CutlassCollector]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

CC, do you have Annis' "Naval Swords"? If so, you will note the sword on pg.61, #42 'British Hanger cum Cutlass'. It is marked in the block letter GR/crown as well as having the WIDC marking, for West India Dock Company. This associated naval piece got me wondering if other, quasi-branches of the naval dept. might have had markings on their swords, or for that matter, if overseas colonial Brit pieces might have had such block-letter markings? Would a Brit coast-guard station have been issued older pattern swords with said markings in the advent of the shortage? Just thinking aloud...

Yes I have that book and also a very similar cutlass to the one you indicated - blade slightly more curved and 2 bar guard, marked Enfield and a small block GR under crown. 1820's coastguard I think. Sim Comfort also shows (EW172) similar that he thinks may have been private or possibly customs service 1840's - similar blade but fluted handle and steel guard. This is marked VR and the cypher is similar to the 1804 cutlass. Below is a picture from the book.

I have never seen RN marked on a cutlass and I'm not sure how early N became a standard mark for Brit Naval cutlasses and boarding axes but N was common late part of 19th and into 20th Century.
CC.