Balinese Keris for consideration/comment

Sajen · 12th February 2014, 09:13 PM

Very good written David! And I am the second one who would like to take this keris to my own collection!

Absolute nothing wrong with this keris!

Regards,

Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 12th February 2014, 09:33 PM

Vogan, I once knew a woman who could read a story into a telephone book.

Your reading of my remarks would challenge her ability.

There is nothing wrong with your keris.

It is not special, but it is a good example of the type of thing it is. You can be quite comfortable in adding it to your collection. The hilt is very recent, but most experienced and discerning collectors do not reject any keris, nor any part of a keris, on the basis of age. The hilt is a correct type and suits the rest of the keris.

Ebay can be a very dangerous place to spend money on keris. You really need a lot of experience, a lot of patience, a lot of time and a lot of luck not to lose badly on ebay. However, that said, you haven't done too badly at all with this ebay purchase.

At the moment I'm pressed for time. I'll get back later with an explanation of what "surface manipulated pamor" means.

DaveS · 12th February 2014, 09:58 PM

I have to agree with everything that has already been said. I think it is a nice kris that is visually very pleasing what with the colors of the hilt matching the scabbard. The handle does need to be turned around though.........Dave.

vogan · 12th February 2014, 11:53 PM

David, thank you for your observations. Your point about keris dress is well taken. That is something I always found appealing in the collection of these objects- the ready acceptance that fittings were not necessarily, indeed seldom are, original to the blade.

As time goes by, I find that I value less and less my own subjective responses to the keris. And I tend to wallow in subjectivity due a lack of knowledge. Despite that, I have the utmost respect for the culture and people who produced such a fascinating weapon and cultural icon. The result is that I would prefer to be told, by someone steeped in the history and culture, that such and such keris is an honest production that conforms to traditional patterns and craftsmanship. Something a person brought up in that culture would appreciate and perhaps be pleased to own. That then becomes something I would like to acquire for my collection and wish to have some understanding of.

Alan, sorry to have parsed your words and lost the sense. I appreciate your time. And DaveS, Sajen, and David, thank you for your thoughts.

A. G. Maisey · 13th February 2014, 12:35 AM

OK. Ten minutes to spare before lunch.

Pamor.

Pamor is made by forge welding layers of contrasting material. This can be various types of iron, which is common in older blades, or in more recent blades by incorporating nickelous material along with ferric material to give a higher contrast.

The basic and most simple pamor pattern is wos wutah, which is layers of the contrasting materials.

By upsetting or manipulating the surface of the blade forging, after the pamor has been welded to the steel core, various patterns are created, which become clear when the blade is finished, examples being:- udan mas, bendo sagodo, wiji timun, & etc.

These are simple patterns that do not use a lot of material and do not take extreme skill nor extreme cost to create.

Other pamor patterns can be created by manipulation of the pamor forging in the fire, before it is welded to the steel core, but sometimes incorporating additional work after the steel core has been welded into place.

This manipulation in the forge involves twisting, re-folding, cutting and re-welding, in fact all sorts of variations on manipulating the material, usually at or close to weld heat, before the pamor billet is completed and before it is welded to the steel core.

These types of pamor require an extremely high degree of skill to create and use a lot of material through flaking of the billet during the process. Consequently these types of pamor are very much more expensive to create than the basic wos wutah, or the surface manipulated pamors that are all the result of further processing of wos wutah.

Wos wutah and the surface manipulated pamors are called "mlumah" pamors. Mlumah means "laying down", a reference to the layers of pamor laying in the same orientation as the core.

The other twisted, cut, refolded, rewelded complex pamors are called "miring" pamors, referring to the fact that the layers of pamor are set at an angle to the core.

"surface manipulated pamor" is not a derogatory term.

Jean · 13th February 2014, 08:31 AM

Hello Alan,
Excellent and very concise summary of the pamor making process!
Regards

Jean · 13th February 2014, 09:01 AM

Hello Vogan,
This style of pamor seems quite common in Lombok, see two other blades in my collection which look quite similar. According to the book from Djelenga I have identified this pamor style as Rante or Srante (chain) but other attributions could be given.
Best regards

A. G. Maisey · 13th February 2014, 11:08 AM

Thanks Jean.

However, this is not pamor rante.

I can see how you thought it might be, because in the example that Djelenga gives a small part comes close to the pattern, but rante must have the "pools" of pamor which represent the links in a chain, joined by a narrow strip. Djelenga's example comes close in a few spots, but the ideal is for clearly defined links to be joined by clearly defined narrow strips.

The examples you show, and Vogan's keris do not come close to being a rante pamor.

The possibilities that I propose are just pools of pamor without the narrow strip, as is Vogan's keris.

Rante is a very common Madura pamor, and is also known in Jawa, it is similar to melati rinonce, they are in fact exactly the same pamor, made in the same way, but melati rinonce is usually smaller and neater than rante. From memory, I think Tammens gives a good example of rante, and because he used sketches the design is easier to understand than an actual blade.

12th February 2014, 11:53 PM	#4
vogan Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 10	follow up by Vogan... David, thank you for your observations. Your point about keris dress is well taken. That is something I always found appealing in the collection of these objects- the ready acceptance that fittings were not necessarily, indeed seldom are, original to the blade. As time goes by, I find that I value less and less my own subjective responses to the keris. And I tend to wallow in subjectivity due a lack of knowledge. Despite that, I have the utmost respect for the culture and people who produced such a fascinating weapon and cultural icon. The result is that I would prefer to be told, by someone steeped in the history and culture, that such and such keris is an honest production that conforms to traditional patterns and craftsmanship. Something a person brought up in that culture would appreciate and perhaps be pleased to own. That then becomes something I would like to acquire for my collection and wish to have some understanding of. Alan, sorry to have parsed your words and lost the sense. I appreciate your time. And DaveS, Sajen, and David, thank you for your thoughts.

13th February 2014, 12:35 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	OK. Ten minutes to spare before lunch. Pamor. Pamor is made by forge welding layers of contrasting material. This can be various types of iron, which is common in older blades, or in more recent blades by incorporating nickelous material along with ferric material to give a higher contrast. The basic and most simple pamor pattern is wos wutah, which is layers of the contrasting materials. By upsetting or manipulating the surface of the blade forging, after the pamor has been welded to the steel core, various patterns are created, which become clear when the blade is finished, examples being:- udan mas, bendo sagodo, wiji timun, & etc. These are simple patterns that do not use a lot of material and do not take extreme skill nor extreme cost to create. Other pamor patterns can be created by manipulation of the pamor forging in the fire, before it is welded to the steel core, but sometimes incorporating additional work after the steel core has been welded into place. This manipulation in the forge involves twisting, re-folding, cutting and re-welding, in fact all sorts of variations on manipulating the material, usually at or close to weld heat, before the pamor billet is completed and before it is welded to the steel core. These types of pamor require an extremely high degree of skill to create and use a lot of material through flaking of the billet during the process. Consequently these types of pamor are very much more expensive to create than the basic wos wutah, or the surface manipulated pamors that are all the result of further processing of wos wutah. Wos wutah and the surface manipulated pamors are called "mlumah" pamors. Mlumah means "laying down", a reference to the layers of pamor laying in the same orientation as the core. The other twisted, cut, refolded, rewelded complex pamors are called "miring" pamors, referring to the fact that the layers of pamor are set at an angle to the core. "surface manipulated pamor" is not a derogatory term. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 13th February 2014 at 11:13 AM. Reason: clarification

13th February 2014, 09:01 AM	#7
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Hello Vogan, This style of pamor seems quite common in Lombok, see two other blades in my collection which look quite similar. According to the book from Djelenga I have identified this pamor style as Rante or Srante (chain) but other attributions could be given. Best regards Attached Images

12th February 2014, 09:13 PM	#1
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,213	Very good written David! And I am the second one who would like to take this keris to my own collection! Absolute nothing wrong with this keris! Regards, Detlef

12th February 2014, 09:33 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Vogan, I once knew a woman who could read a story into a telephone book. Your reading of my remarks would challenge her ability. There is nothing wrong with your keris. It is not special, but it is a good example of the type of thing it is. You can be quite comfortable in adding it to your collection. The hilt is very recent, but most experienced and discerning collectors do not reject any keris, nor any part of a keris, on the basis of age. The hilt is a correct type and suits the rest of the keris. Ebay can be a very dangerous place to spend money on keris. You really need a lot of experience, a lot of patience, a lot of time and a lot of luck not to lose badly on ebay. However, that said, you haven't done too badly at all with this ebay purchase. At the moment I'm pressed for time. I'll get back later with an explanation of what "surface manipulated pamor" means.

12th February 2014, 09:58 PM	#3
DaveS Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 327	I have to agree with everything that has already been said. I think it is a nice kris that is visually very pleasing what with the colors of the hilt matching the scabbard. The handle does need to be turned around though.........Dave.

13th February 2014, 08:31 AM	#6
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Hello Alan, Excellent and very concise summary of the pamor making process! Regards

13th February 2014, 11:08 AM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Thanks Jean. However, this is not pamor rante. I can see how you thought it might be, because in the example that Djelenga gives a small part comes close to the pattern, but rante must have the "pools" of pamor which represent the links in a chain, joined by a narrow strip. Djelenga's example comes close in a few spots, but the ideal is for clearly defined links to be joined by clearly defined narrow strips. The examples you show, and Vogan's keris do not come close to being a rante pamor. The possibilities that I propose are just pools of pamor without the narrow strip, as is Vogan's keris. Rante is a very common Madura pamor, and is also known in Jawa, it is similar to melati rinonce, they are in fact exactly the same pamor, made in the same way, but melati rinonce is usually smaller and neater than rante. From memory, I think Tammens gives a good example of rante, and because he used sketches the design is easier to understand than an actual blade.