16th-17th Battle Axes From German and Swiss Armories

fernando · 29th January 2014, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

... I HOPE YOU GET THE HEALTH ISSUES ALL STRAIGHTENED OUT SOONEST AND MAKE YOUR ESCAPE FROM THE HOSPITAL ASAP. ITS TOO BAD THERE ISN'T A COMPUTER AVAILABLE AS IT WOULD SURE MAKE THE TIME PASS MORE QUICKLY AND YOU WILL BE MISSED HERE ON THE FORUM, GET WELL AND HURRY BACK.

I guess Michael has already left to Hospital/s and unable to read all your hopes and wishes. But he is tough as hell and will be back with us in no time. I will try and follow up his situation.

Matchlock · 27th August 2014, 01:40 PM

Hi there,

I just found this booklet.

Please note that the illustration is NOT from the Late Gothic/Early Renaissance Age but was only done around 1900.

Thus it cannot be called a historic document (contemporary source of illustration; German: Bildquelle), but in fact is a historizing piece of artwork trying to picture Swiss mercenaries (German: Landsknechte), their costumes and weapons the way they most probably looked 500 years ago.
Still it is mere imagination, and of no real historic value to any serious student or scholar of arms and armor.

It is to put the record perfectly straight, for these two contraries, why I reattached the original and contemporary illustration done by Hans Burgkmair the Elder, in around 1525.

Keeping this difference in mind is important, and BASIC.

Just have a close look at the mercernaries' faces, they way are portrayed in both illustrations:

There is the cool striding 'idealized' hyper patriotic, though at the same time ridiculously proud look as cold as ice - characteristic of the super heroic self-awareness of the 19th through the early 20th centuries; remember it was exactly that state of mind which lead to dictatorships in Europe, and two World Wars.

Then, for contrast, study the weary wrinkled and mercilessly authentic portrayed face of the real, the actual old Landsknecht of the early 16th century: leaning on his footaxe, his right hand barely, and with no strength any more!, touching the grip of his Katzbalger - making us feel the burden of freedom (Kris Kristofferson!) too heavy for his shoulders, and his heart. He is completely consumpted, exhausted from his job: his hard life full of fights and wars finally brought him down. Imagine his body covered with scars - scars are lasting memories; nobody and nothing can ever erase, or heal them. They will be right there on his body, in his mind, in his soul, and in his heart. Until death will rescue, and save him.
The truth is that this mercenary is the personified and cruel outcome of what war is.
He is a winner, and he has proved it - by surviving.

Winners got scars, too - the title of the biography of Johnny Cash, by Christopher S. Wren.

This faded and torn paperback of 1971 has accompanied, and followed me.
Almost everywhere I went, or tried to go.
It's has been on my desk, and on my mind, and it has lived like a song in my soul.
Just like John's and Kris's songs.
For more than 40 years.
My left hand is resting on this book.
Right now.
It soothes the tremor.

And Kris's wonderful album Closer to the Bone of 2009 is on my HiFi system.

Please think about, and feel, the responsibility that all of us have - interested in, and living with/collecting historic arms.
ARMS ARE A HEAVY BURDEN, for reminding us of the real 'nature' of the greedy inhuman humans that we are, the self-acclaimed 'crown of creation' - though humble we should be.

Best as ever,

Michael Trömner
Rebenstr. 9
D-93326 Abensberg
Lower Bavaria, Germany

Self-established Academic Medievalist
Graduated from Regensburg University in 1982
Stipendiary recipient and Member of the Studienstiftung des deutschen Volkes, Bonn
Author of BEHÄLTNISSE FÜR KOSTBARES 1500-1700, Verden, 2005
Member of vikingsword.com, with more than 4.100 threads and posts since 2008
M. of the Arms & Armour Society, London since 1991 M. of the Gesellschaft für Historische Waffen- und Kostümkunde e.V., Berlin since 1987
Expertises in European weapons, ironworks and furniture of the 14th through 17th centuries
Preservation and scientific documentation of museum collections

Mediävist, Redakteur und Fachjournalist
Staatsexamen Universität Regensburg, 1982
Stipendiat und Mitglied der Hochbegabtenförderung Studienstiftung des deutschen Volkes, Bonn
Testredakteur bei STEREO, HIFI exklusiv und FonoForum 1979-1984
Autor der Monographie BEHÄLTNISSE FÜR KOSTBARES 1500-1700, Verden, 2005
Mitglied von vikingsword.com mit über 4.100 wiss. Publikationen seit 2008
M. Arms & Armour Society, London, seit 1991
M. Gesellschaft für Historische Waffen- und Kostümkunde e.V., Berlin, seit 1987
Sachverständiger für Waffen, Eisenarbeiten und Möbel des 14. bis 17. Jhs.
Konservierung, Inventarisierung und wissenschaftliche Dokumentation musealer Sammlungen

S.Workman · 28th August 2014, 12:11 AM

Just have a close look at the mercernaries' faces, they way are portrayed in both illustrations:

There is the cool striding 'idealized' hyper patriotic, though at the same time ridiculously proud look as cold as ice - characteristic of the super heroic self-awareness of the 19th through the early 20th centuries; remember it was exactly that state of mind which lead to dictatorships in Europe, and two World Wars.

[/size][/font]Then, for contrast, study the weary wrinkled and mercilessly authentic portrayed face of the real, the actual old Landsknecht of the early 16th century: leaning on his footaxe, his right hand barely, and with no strength any more!, touching the grip of his Katzbalger - making us feel the burden of freedom (Kris Kristofferson!) too heavy for his shoulders, and his heart. He is completely consumpted, [font=Georgia][size=3]exhausted from his job: his hard life full of fights and wars finally brought him down. Imagine his body covered with scars - scars are lasting memories; nobody and nothing can ever erase, or heal them. They will be right there on his body, in his mind, in his soul, and in his heart. Until death will rescue, and save him.
The truth is that this mercenary is the personified and cruel outcome of what war is.
He is a winner, and he has proved it - by surviving.

These axes are cool, this post is great, and this is a hell of an observation. If you don't mind my asking, what health problem do you have that is putting you on the skids? Sorry for the weird appearance of this post, the quote feature is not a huge fan of highlighted material. Or maybe I am just confused.

Shakethetrees · 28th August 2014, 04:32 AM

I got this about twenty five years ago in Normandy, in a small town I cannot remember as I was just passing through on a day trip from Paris.

It is inscribed "YL" or "VL", and is a little over 19 inches along the top from the edge to the heel, and is 15 inches from the heel to the butt of the haft, which appears to be oak and full of worm holes.

The haft, or what's left of it, is loose in the socket. It is roughly pentagonal at the socket.

The form appears to be very old, but I am interested in hearing what everyone has to say.

kronckew · 28th August 2014, 07:18 AM

haft is a tad short for an executioner's axe

(i suspect it was a teeny bit longer in it's working life)

there is a very similar one on ebay at the moment. haftless. marked "AD" on one side, "CP" on the other. sadly we cannot discuss it, so no picture. try googleing images for 'executioners axe'.

here's another. hired him for my quickie divorce. a lot cheaper than going thru the courts as henry the 8th found.

Matchlock · 28th August 2014, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

haft is a tad short for an executioner's axe

(i suspect it was a teeny bit longer in it's working life)

there is a very similar one on ebay at the moment. haftless. marked "AD" on one side, "CP" on the other. sadly we cannot discuss it, so no picture. try googleing images for 'executioners axe'.

here's another. hired him for my quickie divorce. a lot cheaper than going thru the courts as henry the 8th found.

Exactly, but it is much too short for a battle axe, or a working man's tool as well.
I guess we realize that it is not the first, original haft; the proportions should, of course, be about equal to the axe that used to be mine - see opening post of this thread, and attachment here.

The length of the original haft of that fine axe was, of course, about equal to the overall length of that item, which was 119.7.cm.

m

drac2k · 29th August 2014, 02:17 AM

I've had this hatchet for a while: I always thought it was just a wood working ax, mainly because of the "cross," slot in the front, which I thought was for pulling out nails, but I saw a similar provision on some of the pictured battle axes.I also thought that because the back of the hatchet was flat , it couldn't be used for battle, but once again some of the pictured ones were also flat.
Can someone confirm that this is indeed a wood working ax ?

Matchlock · 28th August 2014, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shakethetrees

I got this about twenty five years ago in Normandy, in a small town I cannot remember as I was just passing through on a day trip from Paris.

It is inscribed "YL" or "VL", and is a little over 19 inches along the top from the edge to the heel, and is 15 inches from the heel to the butt of the haft, which appears to be oak and full of worm holes.

The haft, or what's left of it, is loose in the socket. It is roughly pentagonal at the socket.

The form appears to be very old, but I am interested in hearing what everyone has to say.

Hi Shakethetress,

You sure shook - no; not just the trees: YOU shook the WOODS, the very moment you spotted and acquired that fine battle axe, manufactured within the (then) borders of the Germanic areas (German: in den deutschen Sprachgebieten) during the High Gothic period, 13th to early 14th century!
For its Viking stylistic formal predecessor, please cf.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_axe
(the one on top - see attachment).

This item is of a very rare and elegantly wrought type mostly, and wrongly, just termed a 'beheading axe' in English; it was far more than that, though - both actually and originally. Most of all it. was a battle axe, made for the fight, and meant for the killing - when it all came down, when it was man to man, face to face, axe to ... whatsoever.

CONGRATULATIONS, you made it!
It has been, and will be yours - for decades.
It belonged to generations before our time, for about 700 years, and it will belong to somebody else after it being with you.
All that collectors can ever be is just curators - for a moment in time, which is our lives.

So we should be glad, and responsible, for being granted that chance.

The worst kind of curators like us will turn out to be the actual and final caretakers! of those soulless but innocent items.
We can literally rape them, acid-celan them, ruine them, dematerialize them, finalize them.
Just because we can.
Just because we think that they are ours.
They are not.
They belong to the universal cultual heritage of mankind.

If you feel that what is still left of an originally much longer haft may have been with the head for a very long span of time, leave it as it is, or lengthen it.
The original wood should be either ash or oak, and you should use the very same type.

You can make it whole again.
You can heal it.
You both earned it, the axe and you.

And please do send as good and detailed photos of that item as you can take. If you wish to, just send them privately.
I'm looking forward to seeing them.

I will also search for images of actuallc comparable axe heads but they are very rare to find.

All I can do for the moment being are two attachments concerning one of its typological and stylistic followers, dating to the Latest Gothic period of ca. 1500; that item was sold with Hermann Historica's, Munich, 19 October 2005.
That head, of course, was in a state of excavation, crudely cleaned and overpolished.
Nothing I would never even consider to touch.

Best as ever,
Michael

Shakethetrees · 28th August 2014, 02:28 PM

I have thought about re-halting this axe for some time, but I have never settled on any particular form.

I've seen dozens of later axes with their hafts that can have a slight downward drop to the pommel, but I think these are later and somehow wouldn't be appropriate. And, I also suspect a lot are replacements.

A lot of old illustrations from later periods are a little vague on this detail.

So, any assistance is appreciated. I will post images once the project has been completed.

I believe the existing wood is maybe 200 years old. It is not secure in the socket, and, while without a doubt it was hand cut, it just looks too fresh to be as old as the head.

27th August 2014, 01:40 PM	#2
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi there, I just found this booklet. Please note that the illustration is NOT from the Late Gothic/Early Renaissance Age but was only done around 1900. Thus it cannot be called a historic document (contemporary source of illustration; German: Bildquelle), but in fact is a *historizing* piece of artwork trying to picture Swiss mercenaries (German: Landsknechte), their costumes and weapons the way they most probably looked 500 years ago. Still it is mere imagination, and of no real historic value to any serious student or scholar of arms and armor. It is to put the record perfectly straight, for these two contraries, why I reattached the original and contemporary illustration done by Hans Burgkmair the Elder, in around 1525. Keeping this difference in mind is important, and BASIC. Just have a close look at the mercernaries' faces, they way are portrayed in both illustrations: There is the cool striding 'idealized' hyper patriotic, though at the same time ridiculously proud look as cold as ice - characteristic of the super heroic self-awareness of the 19th through the early 20th centuries; remember it was exactly that state of mind which lead to dictatorships in Europe, and two World Wars. Then, for contrast, study the weary wrinkled and mercilessly authentic portrayed face of the real, the actual old Landsknecht of the early 16th century: leaning on his footaxe, his right hand barely, and with no strength any more!, touching the grip of his Katzbalger - making us feel the burden of freedom (Kris Kristofferson!) too heavy for his shoulders, and his heart. He is completely consumpted, exhausted from his job: his hard life full of fights and wars finally brought him down. Imagine his body covered with scars - scars are lasting memories; nobody and nothing can ever erase, or heal them. They will be right there on his body, in his mind, in his soul, and in his heart. Until death will rescue, and save him. The truth is that this mercenary is the personified and cruel outcome of what war is. He is a winner, and he has proved it - by surviving. *Winners got scars, too* - the title of the biography of Johnny Cash, by Christopher S. Wren. This faded and torn paperback of 1971 has accompanied, and followed me. Almost everywhere I went, or tried to go. It's has been on my desk, and on my mind, and it has lived like a song in my soul. Just like John's and Kris's songs. For more than 40 years. My left hand is resting on this book. Right now. It soothes the tremor. And Kris's wonderful album *Closer to the Bone* of 2009 is on my HiFi system. Please think about, and feel, the responsibility that all of us have - interested in, and living with/collecting historic arms. ARMS ARE A HEAVY BURDEN, for reminding us of the real 'nature' of the greedy inhuman humans that we are, the self-acclaimed 'crown of creation' - though humble we should be. Best as ever, Michael Trömner Rebenstr. 9 D-93326 Abensberg Lower Bavaria, Germany Self-established Academic Medievalist Graduated from Regensburg University in 1982 Stipendiary recipient and Member of the Studienstiftung des deutschen Volkes, Bonn Author of BEHÄLTNISSE FÜR KOSTBARES 1500-1700, Verden, 2005 Member of vikingsword.com, with more than 4.100 threads and posts since 2008 M. of the Arms & Armour Society, London since 1991 M. of the Gesellschaft für Historische Waffen- und Kostümkunde e.V., Berlin since 1987 Expertises in European weapons, ironworks and furniture of the 14th through 17th centuries Preservation and scientific documentation of museum collections Mediävist, Redakteur und Fachjournalist Staatsexamen Universität Regensburg, 1982 Stipendiat und Mitglied der Hochbegabtenförderung Studienstiftung des deutschen Volkes, Bonn Testredakteur bei STEREO, HIFI exklusiv und FonoForum 1979-1984 Autor der Monographie BEHÄLTNISSE FÜR KOSTBARES 1500-1700, Verden, 2005 Mitglied von vikingsword.com mit über 4.100 wiss. Publikationen seit 2008 M. Arms & Armour Society, London, seit 1991 M. Gesellschaft für Historische Waffen- und Kostümkunde e.V., Berlin, seit 1987 Sachverständiger für Waffen, Eisenarbeiten und Möbel des 14. bis 17. Jhs. Konservierung, Inventarisierung und wissenschaftliche Dokumentation musealer Sammlungen Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 27th August 2014 at 08:23 PM.

28th August 2014, 04:32 AM	#4
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	Early battle or executioner's axe I got this about twenty five years ago in Normandy, in a small town I cannot remember as I was just passing through on a day trip from Paris. It is inscribed "YL" or "VL", and is a little over 19 inches along the top from the edge to the heel, and is 15 inches from the heel to the butt of the haft, which appears to be oak and full of worm holes. The haft, or what's left of it, is loose in the socket. It is roughly pentagonal at the socket. The form appears to be very old, but I am interested in hearing what everyone has to say. Attached Images

28th August 2014, 07:18 AM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	haft is a tad short for an executioner's axe (i suspect it was a teeny bit longer in it's working life) there is a very similar one on ebay at the moment. haftless. marked "AD" on one side, "CP" on the other. sadly we cannot discuss it, so no picture. try googleing images for 'executioners axe'. here's another. hired him for my quickie divorce. a lot cheaper than going thru the courts as henry the 8th found. Attached Images

29th August 2014, 02:17 AM	#7
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,255	I've had this hatchet for a while: I always thought it was just a wood working ax, mainly because of the "cross," slot in the front, which I thought was for pulling out nails, but I saw a similar provision on some of the pictured battle axes.I also thought that because the back of the hatchet was flat , it couldn't be used for battle, but once again some of the pictured ones were also flat. Can someone confirm that this is indeed a wood working ax ? Attached Images

28th August 2014, 12:11 AM	#3
S.Workman Member Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 116	Just have a close look at the mercernaries' faces, they way are portrayed in both illustrations: There is the cool striding 'idealized' hyper patriotic, though at the same time ridiculously proud look as cold as ice - characteristic of the super heroic self-awareness of the 19th through the early 20th centuries; remember it was exactly that state of mind which lead to dictatorships in Europe, and two World Wars. [/size][/font]Then, for contrast, study the weary wrinkled and mercilessly authentic portrayed face of the real, the actual old Landsknecht of the early 16th century: leaning on his footaxe, his right hand barely, and with no strength any more!, touching the grip of his Katzbalger - making us feel the burden of freedom (Kris Kristofferson!) too heavy for his shoulders, and his heart. He is completely consumpted, [font=Georgia][size=3]exhausted from his job: his hard life full of fights and wars finally brought him down. Imagine his body covered with scars - scars are lasting memories; nobody and nothing can ever erase, or heal them. They will be right there on his body, in his mind, in his soul, and in his heart. Until death will rescue, and save him. The truth is that this mercenary is the personified and cruel outcome of what war is. He is a winner, and he has proved it - by surviving. These axes are cool, this post is great, and this is a hell of an observation. If you don't mind my asking, what health problem do you have that is putting you on the skids? Sorry for the weird appearance of this post, the quote feature is not a huge fan of highlighted material. Or maybe I am just confused.

28th August 2014, 02:28 PM	#9
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	I have thought about re-halting this axe for some time, but I have never settled on any particular form. I've seen dozens of later axes with their hafts that can have a slight downward drop to the pommel, but I think these are later and somehow wouldn't be appropriate. And, I also suspect a lot are replacements. A lot of old illustrations from later periods are a little vague on this detail. So, any assistance is appreciated. I will post images once the project has been completed. I believe the existing wood is maybe 200 years old. It is not secure in the socket, and, while without a doubt it was hand cut, it just looks too fresh to be as old as the head.