Left hand dagger for comments

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you Nando,


It would seem to me that the earlier versions of these must have had turks heads on the gripwork, while this has ferrules, more consistant with 17th c (and I would defer to Jasper for verification of that assumption).

It would be interesting to see if rings with these curious parallel 'slots' exist on other ring guards of these periods. Perhaps more context might lead toward plausible purposes for them .

All the best,
Jim

Hi Jim and Fernando,

in the middle of the 16th century were, next to Turkish knots, copper soldered rings used to fix the binding of the grip. I believe that this development has started in Italy, you can also find it on late 15thC italian swords of type XVIII.

I do believe the notches inside the ring guard have a job other then decoration , I'm not behind the function yet.
One explanation may be that it prevents sticking your index finger like holding a rapier through the ringguard. as a warning signal in the heat of a fight.

I tried to lock a rapier blade inside a dagger ringguard in the notch however this seems not possible, because the fingers of your left hand are in the way.

maybe someone has a better explanation?


best,
jasper

[fernando]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

... in the middle of the 16th century were, next to Turkish knots, copper soldered rings used to fix the binding of the grip. I believe that this development has started in Italy, you can also find it on late 15thC italian swords of type XVIII.
I do believe the notches inside the ring guard have a job other then decoration, I'm not behind the function yet.
One explanation may be that it prevents sticking your index finger like holding a rapier through the ringguard. as a warning signal in the heat of a fight.
I tried to lock a rapier blade inside a dagger ringguard in the notch however this seems not possible, because the fingers of your left hand are in the way...

Bedankt hoor, Jasper for your lines and the magnificent exemplification pictures.
That being shown and said, i now tend to believe that those notches are now no more than a symbolic condensation, reflecting some earlier and more explicit expression of an actual purpose. Let's see if someone chimes in with further enlightening .

[Jim McDougall]

You are welcome Nando!
Good suggestions by Robert on the rubbing. The only thing is if this has been aggressively cleaned, the relief in the marking will not lend to the design being transmitted to the paper. Despite this sometimes there might be evidence of the desecrated marking that might be seen in varying lighting.. beyond this I suppose the X-ray might be next.

Interesting suggestion Jasper on the purpose of the parallel lines inside the ring, sort of a temporal reminder or paternoster effect to get your finger outa there.
Good points on the metal ferrules also used on less ornamented examples I suppose rather than turks heads.

[Jim McDougall]

Just going through "Armi Bianche Italiene" (Boccia & Coelho, 1975) and there are a number of 'crab claw' type daggers of this type, some listed as 'pugnale da duello'. Most (#575/7677/78) are from N Italy and seem to range 1570-1600.
Most interesting that one has virtually the same parallel ridges inside the ring and a peak at the top of the ridge. Another has three ridges inside; another ridges on the outside. In another the ridges have a more stylized effect.
I would be inclined to submit these are more decorative nuances and perhaps elements of 'personalized' style of certain makers? or if these are indeed 'duelling' daggers, perhaps some now forgotten 'signal' known to this particular social strata of the times. Intriguing , yes?

[fernando]

Good resource on Armi Bianche Italiene, Jim. How did i fail to consult it ? Definitely my alzheimer quota is greater than yours .
Indeed the examples are numerous; example #550 has a pommel similar to the one in mine ... do i see it right ?
I take it that calling these Pungnale da duello is just an option for a different name of the same parrying / left hand / main gauche / mano sinistra weapon. I like the portrait of the Cavaliere di Malta ( #568/569 ) bearing one of these on his waist.
Indeed the ridges have rather varied designs ... many more than i thought before. It could then be a sort of signature of the smith ... or a symbol typical of each region ?
One thing i guess we should put apart is its use for sword (tip) breaking; in a quick test i notice that the ring is not "flexible" enough to lodge the different blade widths and, above all, you would have to cut your hand to let the opponents penetrate in the ring, which id a not a plausible move .
Still i have this fixation that, despite its varied shapes, those ridges resemble an aiming sight. Oh forget it .
.

[Jim McDougall]

Actually Nando that book is huge, and consumes a huge part of the living space here in the bookmobile, so its hard to forget about
Good point (no pun intended) on this ring being pretty unlikely to catch the opponents sword, and it would take the collaboration and cooperation of both parties to accomplish this.....way unlikely!

Nando, you must let this 'aiming' fixation go! I say as your counselor, it is not healthy and only imaginary, just say to yourself, its not real!!

Now I admit my fixation remains that these curious elements in these rings are like many such nuanced features on remarkably similar items produced by makers as sort of marks of individuality. I recall years ago visiting the blacksmith shop in Arkansas where the first Bowie knives were made. I was told that James Black, who is generally held to be the first maker of these famed knives, always 'notched' his blades. There was naturally no actual purpose for this feature, despite many attempts to prove otherwise, but it was distinctly a touch added to declare his authorship according to these versions.
I cannot help believing that in an atmosphere of intrigues and secrecy present with the stilettoes, the Council of Ten, dueling itself and other factors in these times in Italy, that there might be nuanced meaning to such features as well. Naturally, such things by their very nature of secrecy, are lost with those who knew them, so can likely never be proven, but remain fascinating plausibilities.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Actually Nando that book is huge, and consumes a huge part of the living space here in the bookmobile, so its hard to forget about ...

Ah, my copy is rather smaller, as it is a special edition made for some kind of presentation and the part with the makers marks is missing ... much to my regret . And i don't leave in a bookmobile; space would be enough for the complete copy here in the apartment

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... Good point (no pun intended) on this ring being pretty unlikely to catch the opponents sword, and it would take the collaboration and cooperation of both parties to accomplish this.....way unlikely!...

Unless you were duelling in a circus .

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... Nando, you must let this 'aiming' fixation go! I say as your counselor, it is not healthy and only imaginary, just say to yourself, its not real!! ...

Alright, fixation gone; no medicines needed .

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... Now I admit my fixation remains that these curious elements in these rings are like many such nuanced features on remarkably similar items produced by makers as sort of marks of individuality. I recall years ago visiting the blacksmith shop in Arkansas where the first Bowie knives were made. I was told that James Black, who is generally held to be the first maker of these famed knives, always 'notched' his blades. There was naturally no actual purpose for this feature, despite many attempts to prove otherwise, but it was distinctly a touch added to declare his authorship according to these versions.
I cannot help believing that in an atmosphere of intrigues and secrecy present with the stilettoes, the Council of Ten, dueling itself and other factors in these times in Italy, that there might be nuanced meaning to such features as well. Naturally, such things by their very nature of secrecy, are lost with those who knew them, so can likely never be proven, but remain fascinating plausibilities...

A sustainable thesis, yes sir .

.