Left hand dagger for comments

M ELEY · 26th January 2014, 04:00 AM

I always wondered if the rings on these were used to try and catch the blade's point, much as the long quillons were used?

Being that its used in conjunction with the rapier, such a design for deflecting and possibly pinning the blade tip.

Thinking through that some more, I guess it wouldn't make sense to allow the point of an opponent's blade to pass through the ring along the defender's hand!! Interesting why they left the ring open on these early pieces, which later became closed guards...

Robert · 26th January 2014, 05:52 AM

Hello Fernando, I must agree with the others that this is a most wonderful dagger and that I am quite impressed with the condition it is in for its age. Have you tried doing a rubbing of the makers mark yet? Sometimes they will reveal things not readily seen by the naked eye. My congratulations to you on being able to acquire this very nice piece.

Best,
Robert

fernando · 26th January 2014, 03:11 PM

Thank you guys for all your comments.
Yes Jim, your assessmentts on either provenance and ring are more than correct. I have read an article in that a modern study was made on the effectiveness of the use on these daggers parrying ring, before and after its inplementation; te result was largely explicit.
Good points on the parrying issue, Mark; still my question goes for the 'grooves' on the lower part of the ring... as if these were an aiming back sight (sorry the fantasy). However it would be a further long shot to consider those as a 'rail' for the opponents sword to slide in for the breaking move. May i assume, by the way, that i am not a keen follower of the blade breaker system/s, as an actual effective procedure .
Thank you for your compliments and the heads up on the mark clearing, Robert. I must say however that, what has to be rubbed, was already done by the seller's (zealous) cleaning of this piece; no brighter image may longer show up. I will stand glad to, at least, ensure that there is a mark on this blade ... whatever it is

Robert · 26th January 2014, 05:52 PM

Hello Fernando, What I meant by a "rubbing" is not a cleaning method. It is when you take a piece of paper, place it over the section of blade that has the makers mark and then using a pencil held so the graphite is at about a 45 deg angle rub it back and forth on the paper gently to reveal the makers mark on the blade underneath. As I am not very good at explaining how this is done, I would recommend a quick Google search on how to make a rubbing.

Best,
Robert

fernando · 26th January 2014, 06:16 PM

My bad Robert; should have well understood it.
I have never used such method, though. The enthusiasm is not great in this case either, as the mark is most faded ... and i don't know what to look for ... you know, something expectable.
But i will soon give it a try

.
Thanks

Norman McCormick · 26th January 2014, 08:48 PM

Hi Fernando,
Really nice piece

, check out BBC Musketeers on Youtube for some left-hand dagger action.

My Regards,
Norman.

fernando · 27th January 2014, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Fernando,
Really nice piece

, check out BBC Musketeers on Youtube for some left-hand dagger action.

My Regards,
Norman.

A big McThank you Norman

I have meanwhile checked on some Youtube Spanish clips and they are impressive. Will check on that one as well.

Jim McDougall · 27th January 2014, 01:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Thank you guys for all your comments.
Yes Jim, your assessmentts on either provenance and ring are more than correct. I have read an article in that a modern study was made on the effectiveness of the use on these daggers parrying ring, before and after its inplementation; te result was largely explicit.
Good points on the parrying issue, Mark; still my question goes for the 'grooves' on the lower part of the ring... as if these were an aiming back sight (sorry the fantasy). However it would be a further long shot to consider those as a 'rail' for the opponents sword to slide in for the breaking move. May i assume, by the way, that i am not a keen follower of the blade breaker system/s, as an actual effective procedure .
Thank you for your compliments and the heads up on the mark clearing, Robert. I must say however that, what has to be rubbed, was already done by the seller's (zealous) cleaning of this piece; no brighter image may longer show up. I will stand glad to, at least, ensure that there is a mark on this blade ... whatever it is

Thank you Nando,
The curious parallel ridges at the bottom of this ring become more of a conundrum, as they seem quite deliberately placed, and outside the normal placement for aesthetic motif. There would seem to be some more pragmatic answer for their presence, but the oft suggested ideas of these or any of the left hand daggers as sword breakers has been regarded by most of the venerable writers as mostly edged weapons lore. The reference most readily at hand being Egerton.
It does seem like the ridges might have some sort of purpose though, and I begin to think of the somewhat mysterious gunner's (bombardiers) stilettos of these periods. Egerton notes that by the 17th century as these daggers in fencing began the end of their use, they had become of a 'reduced' type with blades approximating the stiletto and with a ring guard (p.246).

It would seem to me that the earlier versions of these must have had turks heads on the gripwork, while this has ferrules, more consistant with 17th c (and I would defer to Jasper for verification of that assumption).

It would be interesting to see if rings with these curious parallel 'slots' exist on other ring guards of these periods. Perhaps more context might lead toward plausible purposes for them .

All the best,
Jim

cornelistromp · 27th January 2014, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you Nando,

It would seem to me that the earlier versions of these must have had turks heads on the gripwork, while this has ferrules, more consistant with 17th c (and I would defer to Jasper for verification of that assumption).

It would be interesting to see if rings with these curious parallel 'slots' exist on other ring guards of these periods. Perhaps more context might lead toward plausible purposes for them .

All the best,
Jim

Hi Jim and Fernando,

in the middle of the 16th century were, next to Turkish knots, copper soldered rings used to fix the binding of the grip. I believe that this development has started in Italy, you can also find it on late 15thC italian swords of type XVIII.

I do believe the notches inside the ring guard have a job other then decoration , I'm not behind the function yet.
One explanation may be that it prevents sticking your index finger like holding a rapier through the ringguard. as a warning signal in the heat of a fight.

I tried to lock a rapier blade inside a dagger ringguard in the notch however this seems not possible, because the fingers of your left hand are in the way.

maybe someone has a better explanation?

best,
jasper

fernando · 27th January 2014, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

... in the middle of the 16th century were, next to Turkish knots, copper soldered rings used to fix the binding of the grip. I believe that this development has started in Italy, you can also find it on late 15thC italian swords of type XVIII.
I do believe the notches inside the ring guard have a job other then decoration, I'm not behind the function yet.
One explanation may be that it prevents sticking your index finger like holding a rapier through the ringguard. as a warning signal in the heat of a fight.
I tried to lock a rapier blade inside a dagger ringguard in the notch however this seems not possible, because the fingers of your left hand are in the way...

Bedankt hoor, Jasper for your lines and the magnificent exemplification pictures.
That being shown and said, i now tend to believe that those notches are now no more than a symbolic condensation, reflecting some earlier and more explicit expression of an actual purpose. Let's see if someone chimes in with further enlightening

.

Jim McDougall · 27th January 2014, 11:23 PM

You are welcome Nando!
Good suggestions by Robert on the rubbing. The only thing is if this has been aggressively cleaned, the relief in the marking will not lend to the design being transmitted to the paper. Despite this sometimes there might be evidence of the desecrated marking that might be seen in varying lighting.. beyond this I suppose the X-ray might be next.

Interesting suggestion Jasper on the purpose of the parallel lines inside the ring, sort of a temporal reminder or paternoster effect to get your finger outa there.
Good points on the metal ferrules also used on less ornamented examples I suppose rather than turks heads.

26th January 2014, 08:48 PM	#6
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,613	Hi Fernando, Really nice piece , check out BBC Musketeers on Youtube for some left-hand dagger action. My Regards, Norman. Last edited by Norman McCormick; 26th January 2014 at 10:33 PM.

26th January 2014, 04:00 AM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	I always wondered if the rings on these were used to try and catch the blade's point, much as the long quillons were used? Being that its used in conjunction with the rapier, such a design for deflecting and possibly pinning the blade tip. Thinking through that some more, I guess it wouldn't make sense to allow the point of an opponent's blade to pass through the ring along the defender's hand!! Interesting why they left the ring open on these early pieces, which later became closed guards...

26th January 2014, 05:52 AM	#2
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello Fernando, I must agree with the others that this is a most wonderful dagger and that I am quite impressed with the condition it is in for its age. Have you tried doing a rubbing of the makers mark yet? Sometimes they will reveal things not readily seen by the naked eye. My congratulations to you on being able to acquire this very nice piece. Best, Robert

26th January 2014, 03:11 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you guys for all your comments. Yes Jim, your assessmentts on either provenance and ring are more than correct. I have read an article in that a modern study was made on the effectiveness of the use on these daggers parrying ring, before and after its inplementation; te result was largely explicit. Good points on the parrying issue, Mark; still my question goes for the 'grooves' on the lower part of the ring... as if these were an aiming back sight (sorry the fantasy). However it would be a further long shot to consider those as a 'rail' for the opponents sword to slide in for the breaking move. May i assume, by the way, that i am not a keen follower of the blade breaker system/s, as an actual effective procedure . Thank you for your compliments and the heads up on the mark clearing, Robert. I must say however that, what has to be rubbed, was already done by the seller's (zealous) cleaning of this piece; no brighter image may longer show up. I will stand glad to, at least, ensure that there is a mark on this blade ... whatever it is

26th January 2014, 05:52 PM	#4
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello Fernando, What I meant by a "rubbing" is not a cleaning method. It is when you take a piece of paper, place it over the section of blade that has the makers mark and then using a pencil held so the graphite is at about a 45 deg angle rub it back and forth on the paper gently to reveal the makers mark on the blade underneath. As I am not very good at explaining how this is done, I would recommend a quick Google search on how to make a rubbing. Best, Robert

26th January 2014, 06:16 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	My bad Robert; should have well understood it. I have never used such method, though. The enthusiasm is not great in this case either, as the mark is most faded ... and i don't know what to look for ... you know, something expectable. But i will soon give it a try . Thanks

27th January 2014, 11:23 PM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	You are welcome Nando! Good suggestions by Robert on the rubbing. The only thing is if this has been aggressively cleaned, the relief in the marking will not lend to the design being transmitted to the paper. Despite this sometimes there might be evidence of the desecrated marking that might be seen in varying lighting.. beyond this I suppose the X-ray might be next. Interesting suggestion Jasper on the purpose of the parallel lines inside the ring, sort of a temporal reminder or paternoster effect to get your finger outa there. Good points on the metal ferrules also used on less ornamented examples I suppose rather than turks heads.