Dating Earliest Barrels: the Importance of the Position of the Touch Hole

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Rest asssured, dear 'Nando,


I did get the dimensions alright.

When comparing that monster with the Mary Rose pieces, I only meant to point out their closeness in both style and period, of which I am convinced.


Best,
Michl

Vinced ... but not convinced
This Aljubarrota cannon issue is way far from clarified, i guess.
I have sent an email to The Navy Museum, asking for pictures of the trom chamber in various angles, includign the touch hole. I don't have much hope that they will answer, though

[Matchlock]

Most museums do not reply at all, 'Nando.

m

[Matchlock]

Short, round barrel of a small tiller arquebus (Viertelhaken), with round, reinforced breech, small round touch hole on top, a reinforcing ring at mid-section and a large plate at the muzzle. Traces of red lead minium paint retained.
The long rear integrally wrought iron tiller is now fragmented.
Overall length 30 cm, bore 24 mm.

This barrel may be only slihghtly younger than the earliest recorded actual gun, ca. 1400-10 - please see post #3 on page 1 and
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...andgun+1400-10

At Hermann Historica's Munich, 7. April 2008, lot 1032.


m

[Matchlock]

Of round section throughout, tapering towards the muzzle and segmented into three stages by incised double lines in front of the breech and additionally highlighted by a raised rounded frieze in front of the elongated, swamped muzzle section. Large, round touch hole with deeply hollowed trough on the right rear side; the rear sight missing, the rectangular hole still present, no foresight. Next to the rear sight a barrelsmith's workshop mark of a design often found on Nuremberg barrels.
On the underside there is a barrel loop and a piercing in the straight hook, both for insertion of transversal pins to attach a full stock.
Length 99 cm (Ganzer Haken), bore 22 mm.

Hermann Historica's, 7 April 2008.

[Matchlock]

Of small dimensions (Viertelhaken) and round section throughout, small touch hole with large, funnel-shaped trough on top, long straight rectangular hook forge welded to the barrel, no sights. The long, straight forge welded iron tiller terminating in a ring for handling. Rectangular recoil hook.
Overall length 77 cm, bore 14 mm.

A similar, but smaller and somewhat earlier piece, ca. 1430-40, is preserved in The City Museum of Cologne (image attached),

Hermann Historica's, Munich, 7 April 2008.

[Matchlock]

The description by the auction house was complete nonsense. This was a heavy, round barrel for a wall gun, not for a rifle as the bore is smooth. The square muzzle section was characteristic of 16th c. barrels from the Netherlands, and so was the rear sight with small peep hole; the bead foresight was located on the muzzle section. At the right-hand side there was the touch hole in the center of a dovetailed rectangular pan, the swiveling cover missing. Long, rectangular, pierced recoil hook.
Length 124 cm, bore 26 mm.

Hermann Historica, Munich, 24 Oct 2011.

[Matchlock]

Heavy, octagonal wrought-iron barrel changing flats to an upper ridge at its forward section, deeply struck barrelsmith's mark above the breech; no sights; small right-hand side touch hole, the original pan trough removed; the barrel segmented in three stages by a roped frieze at about one third of its length, and another immediately in front of the short, swamped muzzle section with bell-mouthed muzzle. Rectangular recoil hook.
Retaining its original oak? wood full stock with slightly downcurved buttstock, attached by two iron bands, their ends intertwined at the bottom; the buttstock branded with the initials DK, its rear end a replacement.
Overall length 148 cm, bore 34 mm.

As those Late-Gothic barrels usually feature much thicker barrel walls and somewhat smaller bores (ca. 22-26 mm), I think that that barrel has been drilled out to its present bore during the late Thirty Years War, ca. 1645.

Hermann Historica, 23 April 2012, lot 33.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Short, round barrel of a small tiller arquebus (Viertelhaken), with round, reinforced breech, small round touch hole on top, a reinforcing ring at mid-section and a large plate at the muzzle. Traces of red lead minium paint retained.
The long rear integrally wrought iron tiller is now fragmented.
Overall length 30 cm, bore 24 mm.

This barrel may be only slihghtly younger than the earliest recorded actual gun, ca. 1400-10 - please see post #3 on page 1 and
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...andgun+1400-10

At Hermann Historica's Munich, 7. April 2008, lot 1032.


m

Most amazing
I know that this example existed, but i have never seen it before.
Such one and mine are practically siamese twins.
... and you that very well, Michl .

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=tiller

Is it a coincidence that both have their tails cut off ? Purposely ?
... or was they born like that ... with a sort of 'tang', to fix them on a stock?

[Matchlock]

That barrel of yours indeed slipped off my memory, 'Nando,


The way how similar those two items are is really amazing.

I don't know why the tillers are missing because they of course acted as stocks.


m

[Marcus den toom]

I just love this thread, there are so many haquebuts and information i didn't find on the internet... and believe me i looked high and low for them

Do you also know (or can you give an estimate) about how many haquebuts have survived? They are not easily found, but if you see how many the museum in Graz has...
And how big was there impact on the battlefield (where there many of them employed)?

The English longbow was in some extend capable of penetrating through armour, so where the haquebuts less common in England? (as far as i remember, and i am no expert so correct me if i am wrong about the long bow, but they where easier to make than haquebuts but required a bit more training to use though).

Just a few questions i came up with

[Matchlock]

Hi Marcus,


It's really hard to tell how many Gothic haquebuts, that is from the period before ca. 1510, actually survived; Graz mostly holds haquebuts from the 1520's to the 1580's but only very few Late-Gothic barrels that were restocked in the late 17th c. and are now parts of much younger wall guns.

I would say that no more than about 500 Gothic haquebut barrels have survived altogether, only very few of them retaining their original stocks.

Haquebuts (ganze Haken) and wall guns (Doppel- und doppelte Doppelhaken) were normally not used on battlegrounds, at least not on the side of the aggressor. Basically, they belonged to the lighter defense artillery of fortified places such as fortresses and towns where they were mostly kept loaded and primed in arsenals and on watchtowers. Thus, iron and bronze haquebut barrels alike are often excavated near old town walls, where they were fired from the loopholes - and sometimes happened to fall all the way down.

I am not competent enough to actually compare a haquebut to a longbow, I'm afraid.


Best,
Michael

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Marcus den toom

I just love this thread, there are so many haquebuts and information i didn't find on the internet... and believe me i looked high and low for them

Do you also know (or can you give an estimate) about how many haquebuts have survived? They are not easily found, but if you see how many the museum in Graz has...
And how big was there impact on the battlefield (where there many of them employed)?

The English longbow was in some extend capable of penetrating through armour, so where the haquebuts less common in England? (as far as i remember, and i am no expert so correct me if i am wrong about the long bow, but they where easier to make than haquebuts but required a bit more training to use though).

Just a few questions i came up with

Hi Marcus,
We can read in diverse material that the longbow, appeared in England early fourteenth century, was a formidable weapon. It superceeded firearms in effectiveness and accuracy, although ir needed exhaustive training. You would need to have the practice of a veteran to be a reliable element in battle formation. In the battle of Aljubarrota (August 1385), experienced English mercenaries had a decisive role in the event. On the other hand, firearms could be used equally by the strong and the weak and with far less training.
Contemporary crossbows had an even more powerful effect but their reloading ratio has been always a handicap ... maybe less for hunting than for fighting.
I would put it that, during far more than a century, bows were more effective than firearms ... haquebuts and all.