Dating Earliest Barrels: the Importance of the Position of the Touch Hole

Matchlock · 20th January 2014, 05:33 PM

Sorry, 'Nando,

I must admit that I overlooked that but it makes sense.
In this case, that beast is even younger, late 1st half 16th c., closely comparable to those found on the wreck of the Mary Rose, which sunk in Spithead harbor in 1545, and to another large specimen, 46 cm long, bore 40 mm, weighing 54 kg and formerly in my collection.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...breech+loading

Best,
Michl

Matchlock · 20th January 2014, 05:45 PM

An interesting little handgun, 2nd half 15th c., retaining its original oaken stock (heavily wormed, the fore end and second iron band both missing), the octagonal wrought-iron barrel showing traces of red lead minium paint, the large touch hole on the top barrel flat. At the rear of the buttstock, a small ring is attached (cf. two small stocked barrels in my collection, introduced above).
German private collection.
Overall length 33.5 cm, bore 15 mm, 0.94 kg.

fernando · 20th January 2014, 06:39 PM

I dare ask if you missed another part of the text, when you compare it with the Mary Rose example

.
The one i am posting is more than 3 times longer, 32 times heavier and has an almost 10 times wider mouth

I know many museum internal staff are not keen to describe what they keep but, in this case, the person that catalogues this example is supposed to be well informed; ex-member of the Portuguese Academy of History, ex-Director of the Army Library, ex-Director of the São Jorge (Aljubarrota) military field and museum of Aljubarrota, actively involved in the terrain research and author of various works on naval investigation, he attributes the age of this device to the primordium of pirobalistic artillery.

.

Matchlock · 20th January 2014, 07:03 PM

Rest asssured, dear 'Nando,

I did get the dimensions alright.

When comparing that monster with the Mary Rose pieces, I only meant to point out their closeness in both style and period, of which I am convinced.

Best,
Michl

Matchlock · 21st January 2014, 11:19 AM

Next to my haquebut barrel dated 1481 (see above), here is another important and dated piece, the breech struck with the date 1507. It is for a long, heavy-weight wall gun (doppelter Doppelhaken), starting octagonal at the breech and changing to a round section at about one fourth of its length, emphasized by an incised double line. If it were not dated, 'ca. 1500 or beginning of the 16th c.' would have been my classification based on the above-mentioned criteria. The touch hole is on the right-hand side, and a long dovetail behind the igniting hole denotes that once a pan had been attached that is missing today. That pan, as well as the two barrel loops, most probably were added in its working life, ca. 1530, when that barrel obviously was re-used with a full stock.
Above the rear of the breech, a maker's mark, showing the earliest use of initials I have ever noted on any barrel, IV in a square shield, has been deeply struck three times in the Gothic tradition, symbolizing the stylistic trefoil element. There is another dovetail on the rear top of the barrel, for a rear sight (missing), and also at the rear there is the earliest type of a barrel tang (Schwanzschraube), in all probability also added in ca. 1530. We may assume that originally in 1507, there was a long rear socket for a wooden tiller, and the piercing of the rectangular hook served for mounting the piece on a tripod. The muzzle is bell-mouthed.
Overall length 145.5 cm, bore 40 mm!
It was sold Hermann Historica, Munich, exactly 500 years after it was made, 2 May 2007.

Matchlock · 21st January 2014, 11:46 AM

This crudely made piece is really hard to date, c. 1500, I woud say.
It retained its original tiller stock, showing an early shape of primitive buttstock nailed to the socket of the stout, round barrel, which featured a raised fire shield and hollowed touch hole of 5 mm diameter on top, a rectangular hook and a slightly swamped muzzle.
An old inventory no. was painted in red on the underside of the buttstock.
It was only 88 cm long, weighing 8 kg.
It was sold Bonhams London, 1 Dec 2009.

m

Matchlock · 21st January 2014, 11:52 AM

More of that willfully shaped haquebut.

Matchlock · 21st January 2014, 12:16 PM

This heavy three-staged wrought-iron haquebut wall gun barrel (Doppelhaken), ca. 1530-40, was wrought octagonally at both the breech and the elongated muzzle section bearing a blade foresight, with a long, round mid-section in between. The beginning of the swamped muzzle section was highlighted by a roped frieze. The breech featured the most unusual rear sight that I have ever noticed (now damaged). The three relatively finely made barrel loops and the dovetailed rectangular pan, its cover missing, all indicate a rather late date of make. The long, rectangular hook is no longer pierced. No doubt, this barrel was made for a full stock.
Overal length 121.4 cm, bore 2.8 cm.
Sold Bonhams London, 1 April 2004.

m

fernando · 21st January 2014, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Rest asssured, dear 'Nando,

I did get the dimensions alright.

When comparing that monster with the Mary Rose pieces, I only meant to point out their closeness in both style and period, of which I am convinced.

Best,
Michl

Vinced ... but not convinced

This Aljubarrota cannon issue is way far from clarified, i guess.
I have sent an email to The Navy Museum, asking for pictures of the trom chamber in various angles, includign the touch hole. I don't have much hope that they will answer, though

Matchlock · 21st January 2014, 03:59 PM

Most museums do not reply at all, 'Nando.

m

Matchlock · 22nd January 2014, 09:28 AM

Short, round barrel of a small tiller arquebus (Viertelhaken), with round, reinforced breech, small round touch hole on top, a reinforcing ring at mid-section and a large plate at the muzzle. Traces of red lead minium paint retained.
The long rear integrally wrought iron tiller is now fragmented.
Overall length 30 cm, bore 24 mm.

This barrel may be only slihghtly younger than the earliest recorded actual gun, ca. 1400-10 - please see post #3 on page 1 and
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...andgun+1400-10

At Hermann Historica's Munich, 7. April 2008, lot 1032.

m

Matchlock · 22nd January 2014, 10:02 AM

Of round section throughout, tapering towards the muzzle and segmented into three stages by incised double lines in front of the breech and additionally highlighted by a raised rounded frieze in front of the elongated, swamped muzzle section. Large, round touch hole with deeply hollowed trough on the right rear side; the rear sight missing, the rectangular hole still present, no foresight. Next to the rear sight a barrelsmith's workshop mark of a design often found on Nuremberg barrels.
On the underside there is a barrel loop and a piercing in the straight hook, both for insertion of transversal pins to attach a full stock.
Length 99 cm (Ganzer Haken), bore 22 mm.

Hermann Historica's, 7 April 2008.

fernando · 23rd January 2014, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Short, round barrel of a small tiller arquebus (Viertelhaken), with round, reinforced breech, small round touch hole on top, a reinforcing ring at mid-section and a large plate at the muzzle. Traces of red lead minium paint retained.
The long rear integrally wrought iron tiller is now fragmented.
Overall length 30 cm, bore 24 mm.

This barrel may be only slihghtly younger than the earliest recorded actual gun, ca. 1400-10 - please see post #3 on page 1 and
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...andgun+1400-10

At Hermann Historica's Munich, 7. April 2008, lot 1032.

m

Most amazing

I know that this example existed, but i have never seen it before.
Such one and mine are practically siamese twins.
... and you that very well, Michl

.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=tiller

Is it a coincidence that both have their tails cut off ? Purposely ?
... or was they born like that ... with a sort of 'tang', to fix them on a stock?

20th January 2014, 05:33 PM	#1
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Sorry, 'Nando, I must admit that I overlooked that but it makes sense. In this case, that beast is even younger, late 1st half 16th c., closely comparable to those found on the wreck of the Mary Rose, which sunk in Spithead harbor in 1545, and to another large specimen, 46 cm long, bore 40 mm, weighing 54 kg and formerly in my collection. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...breech+loading Best, Michl Attached Images

20th January 2014, 05:45 PM	#2
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	An interesting little handgun, 2nd half 15th c., retaining its original oaken stock (heavily wormed, the fore end and second iron band both missing), the octagonal wrought-iron barrel showing traces of red lead minium paint, the large touch hole on the top barrel flat. At the rear of the buttstock, a small ring is attached (cf. two small stocked barrels in my collection, introduced above). German private collection. Overall length 33.5 cm, bore 15 mm, 0.94 kg. Attached Images

21st January 2014, 11:19 AM	#5
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Next to my haquebut barrel dated 1481 (see above), here is another important and dated piece, the breech struck with the date 1507. It is for a long, heavy-weight wall gun (doppelter Doppelhaken), starting octagonal at the breech and changing to a round section at about one fourth of its length, emphasized by an incised double line. If it were not dated, 'ca. 1500 or beginning of the 16th c.' would have been my classification based on the above-mentioned criteria. The touch hole is on the right-hand side, and a long dovetail behind the igniting hole denotes that once a pan had been attached that is missing today. That pan, as well as the two barrel loops, most probably were added in its working life, ca. 1530, when that barrel obviously was re-used with a full stock. Above the rear of the breech, a maker's mark, showing the earliest use of initials I have ever noted on any barrel, IV in a square shield, has been deeply struck three times in the Gothic tradition, symbolizing the stylistic trefoil element. There is another dovetail on the rear top of the barrel, for a rear sight (missing), and also at the rear there is the earliest type of a barrel tang (Schwanzschraube), in all probability also added in ca. 1530. We may assume that originally in 1507, there was a long rear socket for a wooden tiller, and the piercing of the rectangular hook served for mounting the piece on a tripod. The muzzle is bell-mouthed. Overall length 145.5 cm, bore 40 mm! It was sold Hermann Historica, Munich, exactly 500 years after it was made, 2 May 2007. Attached Images

21st January 2014, 11:46 AM	#6
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	This crudely made piece is really hard to date, c. 1500, I woud say. It retained its original tiller stock, showing an early shape of primitive buttstock nailed to the socket of the stout, round barrel, which featured a raised fire shield and hollowed touch hole of 5 mm diameter on top, a rectangular hook and a slightly swamped muzzle. An old inventory no. was painted in red on the underside of the buttstock. It was only 88 cm long, weighing 8 kg. It was sold Bonhams London, 1 Dec 2009. m Attached Images

21st January 2014, 11:52 AM	#7
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	More of that willfully shaped haquebut. Attached Images

20th January 2014, 06:39 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	I dare ask if you missed another part of the text, when you compare it with the Mary Rose example . The one i am posting is more than 3 times longer, 32 times heavier and has an almost 10 times wider mouth I know many museum internal staff are not keen to describe what they keep but, in this case, the person that catalogues this example is supposed to be well informed; ex-member of the Portuguese Academy of History, ex-Director of the Army Library, ex-Director of the São Jorge (Aljubarrota) military field and museum of Aljubarrota, actively involved in the terrain research and author of various works on naval investigation, he attributes the age of this device to the primordium of pirobalistic artillery. . Last edited by fernando; 20th January 2014 at 06:56 PM.

20th January 2014, 07:03 PM	#4
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Rest asssured, dear 'Nando, I did get the dimensions alright. When comparing that monster with the Mary Rose pieces, I only meant to point out their closeness in both style and period, of which I am convinced. Best, Michl

21st January 2014, 12:16 PM	#8
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	This heavy three-staged wrought-iron haquebut wall gun barrel (Doppelhaken), ca. 1530-40, was wrought octagonally at both the breech and the elongated muzzle section bearing a blade foresight, with a long, round mid-section in between. The beginning of the swamped muzzle section was highlighted by a roped frieze. The breech featured the most unusual rear sight that I have ever noticed (now damaged). The three relatively finely made barrel loops and the dovetailed rectangular pan, its cover missing, all indicate a rather late date of make. The long, rectangular hook is no longer pierced. No doubt, this barrel was made for a full stock. Overal length 121.4 cm, bore 2.8 cm. Sold Bonhams London, 1 April 2004. m Attached Images

21st January 2014, 03:59 PM	#10
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Most museums do not reply at all, 'Nando. m

22nd January 2014, 09:28 AM	#11
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	A Wrought-iron Tiller Gun, ca. 1420-30 Short, round barrel of a small tiller arquebus (Viertelhaken), with round, reinforced breech, small round touch hole on top, a reinforcing ring at mid-section and a large plate at the muzzle. Traces of red lead minium paint retained. The long rear integrally wrought iron tiller is now fragmented. Overall length 30 cm, bore 24 mm. This barrel may be only slihghtly younger than the earliest recorded actual gun, ca. 1400-10 - please see post #3 on page 1 and http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...andgun+1400-10 At Hermann Historica's Munich, 7. April 2008, lot 1032. m Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 22nd January 2014 at 09:39 AM.

22nd January 2014, 10:02 AM	#12
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	A Nuremberg Wrought-iron Haquebut Barrel, ca. 1525-30 Of round section throughout, tapering towards the muzzle and segmented into three stages by incised double lines in front of the breech and additionally highlighted by a raised rounded frieze in front of the elongated, swamped muzzle section. Large, round touch hole with deeply hollowed trough on the right rear side; the rear sight missing, the rectangular hole still present, no foresight. Next to the rear sight a barrelsmith's workshop mark of a design often found on Nuremberg barrels. On the underside there is a barrel loop and a piercing in the straight hook, both for insertion of transversal pins to attach a full stock. Length 99 cm (Ganzer Haken), bore 22 mm. Hermann Historica's, 7 April 2008. Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 22nd January 2014 at 10:17 AM.