Dating Earliest Barrels: the Importance of the Position of the Touch Hole

[fernando]

Yes Michl, long goes this thread/work, in which you show us and teach us a lot, for which we may only feel much obliged.
To lend the thread a touch of "variety", allow me post the oldest specimen kept in the Portuguese Maritime Musem, which i have twice visited and from which i keep a catalogue on the Artillery thematic.
It is known by the name of "Aljubarrota trom" although, contrary to tradition, it would have never been in this memorable battle. (quoting catalogue author Colonel Nuno Valdez dos Santos; now deceased ).
The text also says that, with its half ton weight and 1,5 mts. length, this is no more than a (loading) chamber from a huge trom or gross bombard, which possible had a 4 to 5 meters length.
Pity that when i was there i didn't take a (clandestine) picture of its touch hole. Maybe when you come down to Lisbon we go there and do it .

.

[Raf]

Found this (ex Bonhams) that looks like its been cut down from something early.

[fernando]

A beauty in your collection, Michl
... or a circumvented touch hole .


.

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by fernando

A beauty in your collection, Michl
... or a circumvente touch hole .

Indeed, 'Nando,

I have never seen anything like that piece again, and I am very glad I bought it from an old Austrian blacksmith who was not willing to part with it for weeks.

Best,
Michl

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by Raf

Found this (ex Bonhams) that looks like its been cut down from something early.

Thanks for sharing, Raf,



Yes, this barrel with rich magic markings was sawn off.

It somehow managed to escape my attentiveness; when was that Bonhams sale?

I attached images of a barrel struck with similar magic markings, early 15th c., and two other, similar.


Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Three remarkable wrought-iron barrels from Montjuic Castle, near Barcelona, Spain:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=montjuic

They came from a U.S. dealer who had many more, all deacessioned from that castle.


The first one is the plainest of this group of three; it is in my collection.
It is a small tiller gun (German: Viertelhaken), ca. 1430-40, of round section throughout, with short, early-style reinforced, octagonally accentuated breech (still loaded!), small touch hole (ca. 2 mm) on top, in the center of a hollowed trough, the round socket retaining a heavily wormed portion of its original wooden tiller stock; the crudely wrought barrel tapering towards the short, swamped, round and bell-mouthed muzzle section; no sighting.
The socket inscribed in ink now turned yellowish:
CASTiLLO de BERNAT (the rest illegible)
BARCELONA SPAIN (again the rest illegible)
1331 . A.D.
Very few other barrels are known to feature a notably reinforced breech section; they all date of the beginning and the first half of the 15th c.
Preserved in optimum, virtually untouched condition.
Overall length 72.6 cm, barrel length 56.2 cm, bore ca. 21 mm, somewhat irregularly.

The second is highly notable for its socket folding for transport: another Viertelhaken, ca. 1440-50, of round section throughout, with seven reinforcing rings, the short rounded breech pierced with an irregular small touch hole on top amidst a round trough, the round socket inscribed similar to the first, equiped with a threaded double-scroll wingnut and folding down with the wingnut loosened (the wooden tiller stock missing), and short, round, swamped muzzle section.
Barrel length 45.5 cm, bore 12 mm.

The third of similar small dimensions, of round section throughout, the long, reinforced, round breech with small touch hole on top, accentuated by three raised bands, the foremost two crudely roped, the long, round, integrally wrought iron tiller bent upwards and terminating in a swamped mushroom-shaped knob. On the ground of the two roped bands, I would tend to date this 'late 15th c.', but then again, all the remaining criteria are so close to the other two barrels that these roped friezes may be a later addition.
In all, this tiller gun should be attributed to the mid-15th c as well.
Exact measurements not recorded.


m

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Three remarkable wrought-iron barrels from Montjuic Castle, near Barcelona, Spain:...

Which disgracefully closed its museulogical space . If this were not published with the due expansion, i was informed by its documentalist, whith whom i was exchanging correspondence at the time.

[Matchlock]

The other two Montjuic guns.

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by fernando

Yes Michl, long goes this thread/work, in which you show us and teach us a lot, for which we may only feel much obliged.
To lend the thread a touch of "variety", allow me post the oldest specimen kept in the Portuguese Maritime Musem, which i have twice visited and from which i keep a catalogue on the Artillery thematic.
It is known by the name of "Aljubarrota trom" although, contrary to tradition, it would have never been in this memorable battle. (quoting catalogue author Colonel Nuno Valdez dos Santos; now deceased ).
The text also says that, with its half ton weight and 1,5 mts. length, this is no more than a (loading) chamber from a huge trom or gross bombard, which possible had a 4 to 5 meters length.
Pity that when i was there i didn't take a (clandestine) picture of its touch hole. Maybe when you come down to Lisbon we go there and do it .

Thanks, 'Nando,

For sharing this indeed drum-shaped specimen that's hard to date as it shows virtually none of all the important criteria.
Yes, to see the touch hole would have been the only possibilty ... Wouldn't they let you take one single photo?

Come on, just do what I used to do in such cases, especially when I did not have a special appointment and was allowed to use flaslight: when they yelled at me 'no photography in here!', I would just go on taking pictures as quickly as possible, pretending that I didn't realize it was me they were talking to. As soon as they got near I would turn around saying, 'Oh, it's me you're talking to. My hearing's not good. Sorry, Sir, my fault.' By then, of course I mostly had what I needed.
What can they do, after all? They won't eat ya up.

Best,
Michl

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

... this indeed drum-shaped specimen that's hard to date as it shows virtually none of all the important criteria....

... But certainly end XIV-latest beg. XV century ?!

Originally Posted by Matchlock

...What can they do, after all? They won't eat ya up...

Oh, i'm the acid type; if they eat me, they'll get an indigestion

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by fernando

... But certainly end XIV-latest beg. XV century ?!

Literally any date might be assigned to it, from ca. 1350 to ca. 1500; I really can't tell.
I doubt whether it is complete though; looks like a cut-down fragment.

m

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Literally any date might be assigned to it, from ca. 1350 to ca. 1500; I really can't tell.
I doubt whether it is complete though; looks like a cut-down fragment.

m

I assume you got my saying that, although this is currently called a trom (bombard), it is a reloading chamber and not an actual cannon .

[Matchlock]

Sorry, 'Nando,

I must admit that I overlooked that but it makes sense.
In this case, that beast is even younger, late 1st half 16th c., closely comparable to those found on the wreck of the Mary Rose, which sunk in Spithead harbor in 1545, and to another large specimen, 46 cm long, bore 40 mm, weighing 54 kg and formerly in my collection.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...breech+loading


Best,
Michl

[Matchlock]

An interesting little handgun, 2nd half 15th c., retaining its original oaken stock (heavily wormed, the fore end and second iron band both missing), the octagonal wrought-iron barrel showing traces of red lead minium paint, the large touch hole on the top barrel flat. At the rear of the buttstock, a small ring is attached (cf. two small stocked barrels in my collection, introduced above).
German private collection.
Overall length 33.5 cm, bore 15 mm, 0.94 kg.

[fernando]

I dare ask if you missed another part of the text, when you compare it with the Mary Rose example .
The one i am posting is more than 3 times longer, 32 times heavier and has an almost 10 times wider mouth
I know many museum internal staff are not keen to describe what they keep but, in this case, the person that catalogues this example is supposed to be well informed; ex-member of the Portuguese Academy of History, ex-Director of the Army Library, ex-Director of the São Jorge (Aljubarrota) military field and museum of Aljubarrota, actively involved in the terrain research and author of various works on naval investigation, he attributes the age of this device to the primordium of pirobalistic artillery.

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